Prayer: A GPS for Life’s Purpose & Guidance

**Foreign**
Hey, welcome back to Between Sermons, where we're continuing the conversation from a sermon that we preached on Sunday.

As always, you don't have to have listened to that message, but you might get a little extra out of this conversation if you did. Hopefully today, as we talk about prayer and what that really looks like in our lives, this conversation will bless you in some way.

I'm excited because I get to hang out with my wife for a little bit. So, Soul, thanks for being back on the podcast.

**Soul**
Yeah, it's always fun. It's always a little bit... it's a little bit dangerous though when the two of us get in a room with the crew around us. I think our pre-show today would probably be more entertaining than the actual show itself because we got in a kind of a heated debate—not maybe not heated, but very passionate.

**Foreign**
It wasn't heated.

**Soul**
No heat.

**Foreign**
No, it was just passion.

**Soul**
Just yes, about the existence of aliens. So if you ever wonder what pastors talk about when they're not talking about the Bible, apparently it's about aliens.

And the real dilemma was, okay, not just do they exist, but does the government have them? And Soul says yes.

**Soul**
I listened to some briefings on YouTube, and if it's on the internet, it's real.

**Foreign**
So, before we talk about prayer, I guess, you know, let us know, what do you think? Aliens, real or not real?

**Soul**
There's no biblical basis for it, although some of our team feels like there's maybe angels or demons that play into what people believe is aliens. So, I don't know, I might be able to get behind that a little bit. I just hope they're friendly.

**Foreign**
Yeah, I would like to have a friend alien.

**Soul**
You just want to have a friend here.

**Foreign**
Yes, that's such a Soul thing.

**Soul**
Yeah, awesome. Okay, so let's get back on point here. So we just wrapped up a series on prayer, and we talked about the why behind prayer, right?

So it's not just trying to equip people on how to pray, but really getting into the why this is so important because sometimes we just tell people, "Hey, you should pray." You should pray. You pray. Why? What's so important about prayer? Why do we need to do this?

**Soul**
And so what is the emphasis for us?

**Foreign**
Right, exactly. Why does it need to be not just a thing that we do, but the thing we prioritize in our lives? Why do we prioritize it as a church and then for us personally?

And with that, I really think that when you know your why, it gives you the dedication you need, the drive you need to actually accomplish something. Like, if you don't know your why, then when opposition comes, when other opportunities come, when frustration comes, when tiredness comes, any of that stuff, it's really easy to not do something.

Like, if you don't really know your why, it's really easy to give up on something. And the reality is sometimes prayer is hard, okay? Like, there's days when you don't really feel like it. There's days when you're too busy and you're running around, or maybe you've been praying about something and God hasn't been doing it the way you expected him to answer it or wanted him to answer it, and you're getting kind of frustrated with the whole process of, "Why am I even bothering talking to you if you're not going to do what I'm asking you to do?"

Which, man, we've addressed that a bunch. Like, it really puts God in the wrong place in our lives. We're elevating ourselves above him, that it's, "But I know best, not God knows best." And we'll touch into that a little bit too, but I think knowing the why is super important.

So we laid it out three ways. We pray so that we can connect to God, right? That it's this relationship with God that is the most important thing, and prayer is the tool that God has given us to be able to connect with him, to really know him, know his heart, be connected to this God of the universe, right? That if aliens existed, he created them too.

Like, it's just a beautiful opportunity that we have to connect to God. We also pray to receive from God. I had a great conversation with my mom about that last week, and it was really a hard thing for me because it leans into this—I don't know, I think there's some organization of Christians out there that will abuse this, and it becomes this Prosperity Gospel kind of mentality, and it's just, you know, name it and claim it, and health and wealth, and it just gets so ugly to me that I kind of drifted away.

**Soul**
I'm curious, like growing up in Mexico, what was your perspective on that?

**Foreign**
I know it is the same, like that you ask when you receive, right? Like you pray and you ask and you receive. But I think that is exactly what you said. Like, there are times that you just feel like you're just coming to God for stuff, and it is just, "Give me, give me, give me, give me, give me."

And the more that I read the Bible, the more that I understand God and the things that I even see the disciples going through, it was never about, "Let me pray so that I can get a Lambo." It was, you know, it was about the will of God, and it was about us having the strength to endure the things that they were going through.

You know, like when Paul was praying, he was not praying for him to have success and wealth. He was praying so that he would be able to endure prison so that he could go and preach the gospel again. So it was a very selfless type of request. Even though it was for him, it was not about having everything that you ever wanted.

So I think that that's the difference, and that is the danger that we can come to when it comes to prayer for receiving something. And I think that's why sometimes I struggle. There are some that I actually bring my needs to God, and I feel like, "Sorry," you know? And I know that that's not what he wants me to be.

**Soul**
So it is one of those that I was going to point that out. Like, because I've struggled with the same thing, but it's kind of like when you have a really good friend and you feel awkward asking them for help with something, right? And it's like every time your friend—if it's a good friend—it's going to be like, "Dude, you can ask me."

And I feel like that's God. You know, maybe he's not saying, "Dude, you can ask me," but you know, I don't know, maybe he is.

**Foreign**
Like he said, "Howdy."

**Soul**
So maybe he did say "Howdy," apparently to her. Such an awesome moment, right?

But yeah, so I think that we approach God in the same way. Like he's a loving father that wants to bless us, wants to give us good gifts, but he also has a will for our lives. He's sovereign, he's in control, and what we think we want and what we think we need sometimes is not in alignment with God.

Which really takes us to look at that segue because the third reason why we pray is so that we can align with God. And I love this. This whole process of prayer is our way of just walking alongside God. And really, it's this idea that it's not about God coming and walking with us; it's about us going to walk with him.

In other words, it's not about God coming and putting his stamp of endorsement on the stuff we're trying to do, but it's us saying, "God, what are you trying to do? And I want to line up with that." And if I'm going off course, I want to be back in alignment with you.

Yeah, for us, just us human beings, right? Because we have dreams and we have plans, and there are things that—ideas, and we have all these things that we want, and that is normal. And I think that that is good. Like, you should have desires, you should have dreams, and you should have passions that you are seeking.

But I think that the danger comes when you prioritize that over what God wants. You know, when the stuff that you have, like your house and the vehicle that you drive and the way that you are perceived and your plans, are more important than doing what God is calling you to do.

And that is hard. That is very easy to say, "No, just follow God and do what he wants." But when that means saying no to things that you really want, or when that means that you are going to be vulnerable and show up all of the dirty spaces in your life and surrender all of that, it's hard. It is not easy to do.

**Foreign**
Absolutely. So in your message, you talked about when we align with God, there's kind of three things that we receive because it was really interesting. You know, your message really tapped into some of the connecting to God, but also connected a little bit to the receiving from God because, you know, all of it is interwoven.

But when we are aligning with God, there are some things that we receive, right? So you pointed out we receive guidance, we receive wisdom, and we receive perspective. So let's talk about that a little bit. Where does the guidance come into play?

**Soul**
I think that is when you really don't know where you're going. You know, there's so many times that you don't know, like, is this job or is that job? You know, am I supposed to be marrying this person or dating this person? Am I supposed to—how am I supposed to raise my children?

You know, I think that's where I am in life right now, and that's a lot of my prayer when it comes to guidance is, "God, what do I do? And how do I approach my kids in a way that is going to be effective? And how can I talk to them in a way that they will receive it?"

And it's just that guidance. And like, how do I do this? Like, show me, right? So I think that that's for me. It is very practical. It is very everyday. Like, what do you need so that you make the right decision?

**Foreign**
Yeah, if there's a passion that talks about, you know, God illuminating our path. And if you've ever hiked a trail in the middle of the night where all you have is a flashlight, you absolutely have come on, girl.

But all you have is a flashlight. Like, some people don't realize that the flashlight isn't showing you way down the road. Like, it's literally just showing you the path in front of you, like the next few steps. And you've got to take those steps before the light will illuminate what's coming next.

And I think a lot of times God's guidance for us is like that. You know, we may be asking for big picture, and he's telling you to take one step.

**Soul**
Yeah, and it's like, but I like the picture.

**Foreign**
Exactly. And a lot of times we argue with God or we push back on it because we're like, "But I need to know where I'm going," and all you're giving me is one step. And we're almost like we're refusing to take the one step that we know we're supposed to take because we want to know what comes next.

But you're not going to find out what's next until you take the step. And if it's a waiting game between us and God, I think the timeless one is going to win in that battle.

**Soul**
Yeah, it is. It's difficult. And that's what—I was not super excited about talking about surrendering, you know, because I know how hard it is. I know that sometimes it can sound like, "Well, they are talking at me, and it is easy for them, but it is not easy for me."

But it is not easy for any of us, you know, being able to just trust that that one step will take you to where God wants you, but you really don't even know where he wants you, you know?

And he just, like that story just reminds me of Abraham, you know, when God says, "Just go, and I will show you." Like, he didn't even tell him where to go.

**Foreign**
I'll show you, then you can go.

**Soul**
Exactly. Go, and I'll show you. So he had to pack it all up and be like, "Okay, like where do I start walking? Like to the left or to the right?" Like he had to truly trust every single step because he had no clue where he was going.

Have you ever wondered, like, which direction?

**Foreign**
Like what was his first step? Like God says go, so he packs all up all of his stuff. How does he choose? Am I going north, south, east, or west?

**Soul**
I'm sorry, those are directions.

**Foreign**
Yes, like I'll go if there's a camel.

**Soul**
Like that's so much. He threw me totally under the bus on Sunday though with my direction giving. But yes, north, south, east, and west is how a lot of people navigate for centuries.

**Foreign**
Are you a pirate or something?

**Soul**
No, we have landmarks. So we're on the south side of Chicago. If you know where the city is, that's north, and that should lay out everything else.

**Foreign**
Yeah, and when I am just at Walmart, how do I know where the city of Chicago is? I don't know.

**Soul**
Oh, you should absolutely know. If I go to a different Target or to a different store or to a different place in that way.

**Foreign**
Okay, we're going to stop having a marital counseling session and build a podcast.

**Soul**
Yeah, so this whole guidance thing is pretty awesome. It can be challenging because what we want from guidance is not always what God gives us from guidance, right?

In the methodology, but also in the direction, right? Like sometimes we're like, "God, I'm pursuing this thing," and God's like, "I want you over here." And you're like, "Man, that's a big sharp turn from what I had planned."

And so sometimes that guidance can be challenging. I think I'm in a little bit different place than you are in that, like you feel like you're in a place right now, as you described it, that you're needing guidance because you don't know where to go.

For me, I think a lot of times my biggest struggle is I've got the plan. I know where I want to go. And so the guidance comes in, "God, I've got my plan because my plan aligned with your plan."

Yeah, like this seems like the logical—I'm a very logic-driven, so it's like this seems like the logical thing to do in this season, in this moment for the church, for the family, for me personally. This is what I should be doing.

And sometimes I can start walking in that direction before I pray and ask God for guidance. And so that for me, it's not necessarily so much that I don't know where to go; it's that I've chosen where to go.

**Soul**
Yeah, God, is that in your will? Like am I aligned with you or am I going off course? And for me, like I am a dreamer. You know, I have all of these plans and all of these ideas.

And I think that in a way, it's not that it's easier, but it is more natural for me to ask for guidance.

**Foreign**
Yeah, yeah, because I have plans, but I don't have know-how.

**Soul**
Yeah, you know, like I'm always like, "And I want us to have this," and it's huge. And the question is always how, and I'm like, "I don't know."

**Foreign**
And when you say the question, it's the question I'm asking you.

**Soul**
Yes, so if anybody's curious how this marriage works, it is Soul's the big picture dreamer; I'm the detail person.

**Foreign**
Yeah, so I think for everything, you know, like I see the church, and I can see the seating and how I want it to look like and how I want it to sound like and how all this stuff.

And then the whole how are we going to get there, I don't know. And when you say the question, it's the question I'm asking you.

**Soul**
Yes, so if anybody's curious how this marriage works, it is Soul's the big picture dreamer; I'm the detail person.

**Foreign**
So this is kind of interesting because, you know, that's true in your life, like figuratively, but it's also true literally. You talked about this on Sunday about being really bad with directions, really struggling with going to new places and needing the GPS.

And really talk about that, how prayer really connects to this idea of a GPS because I think that it is—that is that guidance. You know, it is the saying, "God, show me where to go." And when he's showing you, then you start following.

**Soul**
You know, like it's like he's giving you the address, and then you start following.

**Foreign**
No, because you know the destination now. You know exactly how to get there.

**Soul**
Yeah, you know, because I can send you an invite, and I can put an address, and you have the address, but you have no idea how you get from point A to point B.

And I think that it is in that prayer time when you are with God that he's showing you the next step, "Turn right ahead," and then showing you the next step. And that's why you need to be so close to him.

**Foreign**
So close that you know when he's turning so that you can turn. So close that you know where he is when he's stopping so that you can stop instead of just doing your own thing and then realize God turned three kilometers behind you.

**Soul**
Right, kilometers. Oh, I have not said kilometers in an interview. That is very Mexican to me, but you know what I'm saying.

**Foreign**
That just like when you realize, "Oh, God already turned," and I was just staring ahead.

**Soul**
I think that the closer you are with God, the more you know when he's leading you to move, to turn, to stop, to keep on going.

**Foreign**
Yeah, I love even that analogy of, you know, the GPS. That God gives us a lot of times, it really is a turn-by-turn direction, right?

Like it's, "Make this turn, and then I'll tell you what's next." Like, you know, I'm not giving you the list view. It's not showing you, "Okay, you're going to turn here, here, here, here. You're going to make eight turns."

No, no, he's just like, "Turn here, and once you do that, I'll tell you what's next."

**Soul**
Yeah, I love it. And something that is funny is that I have said it many times, like I don't trust the GPS. And I talked to some people yesterday even, they said, "You know what? Like I really don't trust the GPS."

And that's what I want to make the difference. We need to trust God.

**Foreign**
Yes, absolutely. Now, you might not trust your phone GPS because you might tell you that you have reached your destination, and you're at somebody's house. You're like, "This is not what I wanted to do."

**Soul**
And you wanted to do distrust of the GPS because that happened to us.

**Foreign**
Yes, we're with friends going to a movie theater that we had never been to in a state we were not from and put it in the GPS and we were driving through a residential neighborhood, and it said, "You've reached your destination," and it was just some guy's house.

And I'm like, "Well, maybe they have a movie theater in there, but I don't think so."

**Soul**
I don't trust the GPS because it has steered you wrong, right? But God will never do that.

**Foreign**
Yeah, you know, like I think that all of our imagery falls short to what God really is, you know? So like you might not trust your actual GPS to get you to a soccer practice or to a party or to wherever, but you can trust that God is not going to say you have arrived when you're just in the middle of the road.

**Soul**
Right, so yeah, so no analogy is perfect. You can trust God.

**Foreign**
Yeah, but this is a good one then. You know, prayer becomes that inputting of the GPS, and really it's the Holy Spirit that's guiding and doing all that.

**Soul**
Yeah, I like it. It's pretty good. I would say for somebody that's like, "Okay, I've been praying for guidance. I've got job A and job B," and I give this advice all the time to people, and maybe it's horrible advice, so you can fix it.

I've got option A and I've got option B. I've got peace in both. There's nothing about either option that is contrary to the Bible, contrary to wisdom, contrary to advice that I've gotten from people. Both are great options.

It just seems like I don't know which one I'm supposed to take, and I keep praying about it, and God's not telling me A or B. What do I do?

**Soul**
So the advice that I've given people—and this is where maybe you can make it more pastoral and clean it up for me—is it means that God doesn't care.

And I know that when I say that, it like, it's like, "God doesn't care." I don't mean it in that way. I mean God's gonna bless option A, and God's gonna bless option B.

And really what you need to do is just pick one and go for it. And it's one of those where God's plans are so perfect for our lives that, you know, it could be this job in Texas; it could be this job in Illinois.

In both places, God's going to have purposes and plans and things for you to accomplish and for you to do. But a lot of people get that paralysis of choice where it's like, "I've got two great options in front of me, and I've done everything that I'm supposed to do, and I still don't know which one to take, so I'm just gonna sit here in a holding pattern."

I think that's a bad thing to do unless God has told you to wait, right? So what do you think? Is that bad advice? Do you need to clean that up? Is telling people God doesn't care a bad thing to say?

**Soul**
God does care, but I think that if you feel peace—because I think to me that's the biggest guide, you know? Like if you have peace in thinking of option A and you have equal amount of peace with option B, I think that you need to weigh your options and see what other stuff is in your life.

The guy has called you to make your pros and cons list.

**Foreign**
Yeah, you know, because if going with option A because of the hours or because of the salary or because of wherever is gonna allow me to get closer to the other things that God has called me to do, go with it.

Then you can probably go with that one, you know? Because there's times that you're like, "Okay, both options are great, but if I go with option B, I will be working on Sunday, so I will not be able to go to church."

Well, maybe option A might be better for you, you know? Like depending on what you are considering important.

**Soul**
Important, you know? And so it might be that one option opens and frees more time so that you can work on other stuff that you have not been able to because of previous jobs or of previous opportunities.

So I think that it is always not looking just at the thing itself, but what would it look like and what will it bring to your life if you pick one or the other and not just the thing itself.

**Foreign**
I like it, yeah. And then trust the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

**Soul**
Yeah, yeah. I just want to put that out there for people that are like, "I've been praying about this. God's not given me an answer."

Yeah, what does that mean? It may mean that both options are great.

It may mean that he's been speaking to you, and you just haven't been listening. So like it's more—it's probably a bad thing to talk about on a podcast because it's more of like when I sit down with you and you tell me your situation, I can kind of speak better into it.

But making blanket statements, probably shouldn't do that.

**Foreign**
Yeah, it is definitely a case-by-case scenario, you know? And I think that even having advice from other people that are close to you, that know your journey, that know what you prioritize and stuff, and have their input as well, you know?

Because they might be seeing something that you don't, and then they might give you wisdom. They might give you some clarity that you didn't have before, or they might know somebody in one of the places or in one of the decisions that you're trying to make.

They can say, "Well, you know, like according to my experience, this might be better or that," or stuff like that. So I think that always having other people involved, it's important.

**Foreign**
Yeah, I like it. Absolutely. Okay, so we get guidance; we also get wisdom. How does that come into play as we're aligning with God? Where's wisdom in that?

**Soul**
I think that the wisdom comes with the know-how. I think that is the know-how, you know? It is that when God is telling you to take one step, he will show you how to do it.

You know, when I was praying for our son Jaden, and he was having a long time ago, like a few years ago, he was having a lot of issues with negative thinking, and I was praying, and I was saying, "God, what should I do?"

And God showed me that he needed to get all of that out. So I think that was my GPS, you know? Like he has to verbalize that he needs to get all of that out.

But I think that the wisdom came in actually having a notebook where he would write every day, and we called it his "Fat Book of Lies."

And he would just write in there like three things that he thought that were not true. Yeah, and every single day he would do that.

You know, he would write like, "I am not smart enough," or "Nobody wants to be my friend," or "I was on the way," you know? And then we would talk about it and be like, "Well, that was a lie because that's not true. Like you're a smart boy," stuff like that.

So I think that that was a wisdom that I didn't have. Like I didn't come up with that plan on my own, but it was in prayer that God showed me, like, he has to take all of that stuff out.

Like he cannot keep bottling it, and then the wisdom came into play with the whole, "Do it this way."

**Foreign**
Right, so I think that that's the thing that we all need. So we ask God for the next step, and he might say, "You need to move," and then his wisdom will be where and how and so what you need to do to prepare to get there, stuff like that.

It's almost like it's the guidance 2.0 part, right? Like the guidance is telling you where to go; the wisdom is telling you how to get there and what to do.

And maybe sometimes when we're praying, the alignment with God, the guidance that we're getting isn't about going anywhere. You know, it may not be about a job opportunity or something; it may just be, "I don't know how to talk to this person."

Right? I don't know how to bring up this issue. I don't know how to ask this question. I don't know how to do this thing.

And so God's wisdom when we're in alignment with him and it's his will, like he's not going to leave you hanging, right?

Like if it's God's will for you to do this thing and you're like, "I'm trying to do it, but I don't know how," God's not going to be like, "Tough luck. Hate it for you."

Right? I wish you were smarter. No, he's going to give us the wisdom that we need. If any of you lacks wisdom, ask your heavenly father, right?

And he will give it to you.

**Soul**
Yeah, and so I think that's beautiful. And the thing is that, you know, like his wisdom sometimes is for us to do something; his wisdom is sometimes for us to not do something.

Do something, yeah. Because that thing in our humanity, we are like naturally fixers. You know, you want to fix the situation; you want to make it better.

We need to talk about it, you know? And there's times that the wisdom of God makes you be quiet.

**Foreign**
Yeah, yeah.

**Soul**
You know, like it just makes you sit there and just not do anything about it. And that sometimes is harder than just being able to let loose and say everything that is inside of your heart.

So that is also—that's how it's a wisdom.

**Foreign**
Yeah, and so often when I'm praying for somebody, like somebody asks me to pray for them about a relationship, maybe it's a husband-wife issue or a parent and kid thing, without fail, every time I pray over them, there's going to be some prayer in that of give them the wisdom to know what to say, when to say it, what not to say.

**Soul**
Yep, right? Because like so often, it's our mouths that get us in trouble.

**Foreign**
Yeah, and wisdom—there have been times when my mouth was in the process of getting me in trouble, and the Holy Spirit was like, "Shut up."

**Soul**
It's just one of those, like zip it. Like enough. I'm literally like I've let sentences just hang in the middle of the sentence when I realize I shouldn't be saying what I'm saying right now.

**Foreign**
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

**Soul**
Wisdom.

**Foreign**
Yeah, like a very Michael Scott moment. As soon as I said it, I knew it was wrong.

**Soul**
If you're not an Office fan, I guess we can't be friends because that is a really—it's a part of our lives.

**Foreign**
We gotta finish that Lego set, by the way.

**Soul**
We do.

**Foreign**
But anyways, the last thing that it gives us—and then we're going to talk about the no-no word. You had a no-no word in your sermon that nobody's gonna like, and we're going to talk about that a bunch.

But the last thing that we receive when we do align with God is we get perspective.

**Soul**
Yeah, talk to me about that.

**Foreign**
The thing is that we all think that we're right. We all think that we know exactly what should happen and how it should happen and how you're the one in the right and they are the one in the wrong.

And it might be that you're right in that, but when we are in prayer, we get the heart of God.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
We get the heart of God for people, for the circumstances around us. We start to prioritize what he prioritizes.

And sometimes you come and you have all of these things that you want, right? And I want a new home, and I want a better job, and I want this.

And when you are in prayer and you realize that what is most important to God is for people to know him and for people to come to Jesus, right?

And live the life of sin and stuff like that, then you start to prioritize everything a little bit differently. Then you realize that sometimes our issues, even though they are important to us and they are important to God, there might not be the biggest thing that we need to focus on.

And it just shifts the way that you approach stuff and how you approach people and how you approach everything because you start getting the heart of God for people.

Yeah, there's times that I've been mad at somebody, and I am praying, and God's like, "Well, that's my child."

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
And I'm like, "I created them. I love them." And I'm like, "Like, oh, you're right."

**Soul**
Yeah, you're right.

**Foreign**
You know? And I am over here badmouthing your child. How would you feel if somebody was badmouthing one of your kids?

**Soul**
Yeah, you will not have very much luck.

**Foreign**
Yeah, so I think that it is in prayer that if you really are sensitive to the voice of God and you are asking him to guide you and to give you wisdom, he will start changing your heart.

**Soul**
Yeah, you know, and that doesn't mean that you're never gonna get angry at people or that you're never gonna want your own thing, but everything kind of starts taking the right place.

That even when you want your own stuff, you're like, "But I really need them to understand this. Like, I really need them to be better," or "I really need the circumstances to change."

But when I am in prayer, I just feel that God is saying, "It's okay."

**Foreign**
Yeah.

**Soul**
And you can be okay with that.

**Foreign**
Yep, because you have a new perspective.

**Soul**
Yep.

**Foreign**
Yeah, and I think perspective is such a powerful thing. I feel like we could teach on perspective all day, every day, and it would still be beneficial to people because so much of what goes on in our lives is just a matter of perspective.

You know, it's, "Was this a bad thing, or was this God setting up for something else? What was this a horrible moment, or was this a lesson to be learned?" Right?

And it's all of that comes into perspective. How are you choosing to look at a situation?

And so often what our perspective is is messed up, primarily because there's this really interesting phrase that I've heard be used a lot more lately, and it's this idea of protagonist syndrome, where like every single person believes they're the protagonist in not just their own story but in the global story.

So like I'm the main character; you're the side character.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
But when we all live like we're the main character and everybody else is a side character, like it puts everything in this weird perspective where it's like, you know, I'm looking at them as they're the bad guy that did something wrong to me, but I'm not owning up to maybe if you shift a perspective, an outsider would look at it and be like, "Yeah, but you were kind of a jerk."

Like, I don't think it's really the situation that you're going through. Like it's you. Like you need a perspective change.

That it's this person wasn't being a jerk to you; they had a bad day.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
Right? And that little subtle perspective shift, man, it changes our outlook on everything, on situations, on people, on God's plans for our lives.

Like there are so many times when I was frustrated with God because I was like, "You're not doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing right now. I specifically requested it."

I'm so angry at God, and it's like, man, a couple of weeks down the road, a year down the road, 10 years down the road, looking back, and it's like, "I was looking at it the wrong way."

Yeah, like I was looking—I had bad perspective.

**Soul**
Yeah, like a few months ago, I had an issue with a person, and I got my phone after this person texted me, and I went off—not too bad, but bad enough that I sent the message.

And I remember looking at you, and I said, "Well, I just sent a message that was not a Holy Spirit approved."

And like I remember that, and I was dealing with that all day. Like I kept just feeling like that was wrong, that was wrong, that was wrong, that was wrong.

And I was praying. I was like, "No, God, like they are in the wrong. Like they did something that should not have happened, and they needed to know. They needed to know that it was not okay."

And I remember I was driving Kelsey, our daughter, to gymnastics, and I was praying, and she kept just trying to talk to me, and I was just praying because I was really frustrated.

It was a really frustrating situation, and I was praying. I was saying, "God, like I just don't know anymore. I don't know what to do."

And I was asking God for guidance, and I remember in that moment he used Kelsey to give me perspective.

And Kelsey looked at me, and she said, "Mommy, I know what grace is." Out of nowhere, like we're driving to gymnastics, and I'm like, "I'm upset. Like you mind your own business."

And she was like, "I know what grace is. That is doing to people what—giving people what they don't deserve."

And then she's like, "And that's what Jesus did for us. He gave us what we don't deserve, so we need to do that to everybody."

**Soul**
Right?

**Foreign**
Way to go, kids' life!

**Soul**
And that was, thank you, Jenny, for—and I was like, "Oh my gosh."

Like my eight-year-old just showed me how wrong I am in this situation, not because I was the one that did the wrong thing. I was the one that was wronged, but my reaction to it was not Christ-like.

Yeah, and I was not giving grace. I was saying, "You messed up, and I'm gonna let you know that you messed up."

And I remember getting into the gymnastics place, and I immediately grabbed my phone and I apologized to the person that did me wrong for the rude comments that I was giving her through messages.

And it was at that moment that I felt like I finally have peace today. I had no heartbeats all day because I have deviated from what I was supposed to do.

Like I was not aligning with God in that moment. I was just wanting to be sold and let somebody know this is not okay.

God, you can do your grace thing, but right now I need vengeance.

**Soul**
Exactly.

**Foreign**
And that was—and I was thinking like, "God, you guys show up, and you like this person needs to know how wrong they are."

Like I'll be one of those David prayers, "Knock out their teeth, oh God."

**Soul**
100%.

**Foreign**
I wanted many things to be knocked down, you know?

But it was in that moment that when I was praying in the car, the answer came through my child, you know, who said, "This is what grace means."

And that's what God wants for all of us.

**Soul**
Oh man, knife to the heart.

**Foreign**
Yeah, but it's those perspective shifts because so often, especially when we're the one that was wronged, it can be really easy to then end up in the wrong.

Yeah, right? Because it's like, "But what they did to me was worse," and "My reaction to it is justified."

Yeah, and say, "Well, justification is not really the point."

**Soul**
Yeah, right?

**Foreign**
Like we're giving grace, and we're giving mercy, we're giving forgiveness because that's what's given to us.

Yeah, like Kelsey will say, we give people what they don't deserve.

Exactly. And thank God that that's how God treats us because if he gave us what we deserved, I'll be doomed.

**Soul**
Yeah, yes, it's not good.

**Foreign**
So is that changing perspective? And honestly, the only way that you receive that and the only way that you are convicted for it is through prayer.

You know, like saying, "God, I want to not just hear it and be like, 'Yeah, wherever,' but really take it to heart in a way that it moves me to change."

Yeah, if you're never hearing the Holy Spirit correct you, it probably means that you've turned down the voice of the Holy Spirit in your life to almost muted.

Or if it's easy for you to just dismiss it, you know? Because I literally struggled the whole entire day. I had no peace, no for one second because when you are not living according to what God is telling you, there's something inside of you that is not going to settle right because it is the spirit in your flesh fighting for the alignment with God.

You know, and you're saying your flesh is saying, "No, you do your thing," and the spirit is saying, "No, we're supposed to live according to what God and Christ is showing you to do."

So when you're gonna give in to one or the other, but one is gonna bring peace, and the other one is going to bring anguish for the whole entire day.

Yeah, and that honestly, that's where we've got to get is alignment with God.

And when you're in that alignment with God, peace, like joy, like knowing that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, that you're treating people the way you're supposed to.

When you get outside of alignment with God, that's when life just crashes and crumbles.

Yeah, and so like for me, like I would just rather just be walking, and I don't care about my plans and my dreams.

Like I'm gonna mess that stuff up anyways, but if I can just—if I can just get as close to your will as possible, and sometimes I'm going to veer off, and sometimes I'm gonna mess up, but man, just Holy Spirit, just bring me back into alignment with God.

I think, man, it's such a beautiful moment.

And you said something in the message that I wanted to repeat about perspective, that sometimes it's not the circumstances that need to change; it's you that needs to change.

You said that, and I was just like, "Suck." Because like I knew that there were some things that I've been praying about that I was wanting the circumstance to change, but really it was me that needed to change.

There was something that I was ignoring, or there was something that I was brushing off as, "Well, what I'm doing isn't as bad as what they're doing."

And I realized when you said that, it was like, "Ouch, I needed to hear that."

It's not the circumstances that need to change; it's me that needs to change.

And it's not other people that need to change; it's us.

You know, because I think that when we just want everything else to change but not us, that we are not being more Christ-like.

Yeah, we just want our surroundings to be perfect, and that is not what God wants in our lives.

Like, yeah, he wants us to have peace and to have joy, but all of that is inside because we cannot control how other people react.

We cannot control things externally, but we can control what is inside of us and how we respond to things.

And I think that's why God wants to change us and change the way that we think.

Like it is a personal work, and we need to be willing to have that shift because when you just want them to change and your circumstances to be better, like you are not taking accountability for you.

And the reality is the only person you can change is just you.

Like I don't have the power to change you, so if there's something broken or wrong in our marriage, like I've got to figure out what is my role in this, what is my part in this.

Yeah, and then, you know, through prayer and through God's guidance, hopefully you're going to be working on your stuff, but I need to work on mine.

Yeah, like my role as your husband is not to work on your stuff.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
And that's the priority. That's where I can impact the most significance, the most change, is when I work out my stuff.

And then you sometimes we make such a big thing out of everything because we are focusing on the wrong thing.

Again, it's the perspective thing.

**Soul**
Yeah, 100%.

**Foreign**
But we are just asking for all of this stuff to change when if we were to adjust ourselves and the way that we respond to things, and if we were to align with God and just respond in a way that God will approve, a lot of things will be different.

Yep.

**Soul**
Now, I talk about all the time, it's one of my favorite things, the forced perspective.

So when you—in photography, and we all know this from the pictures of the Leaning Tower of Pisa, where people are like standing like this, and it looks like they're holding up this just giant structure, that's called forced perspective.

So you're forcing the camera to make the thing that's in the foreground look larger than the thing in the background, even though the thing in the background is significantly bigger.

It's a really cool camera trick that you can do with a lot of different things, but that's kind of the most popular example.

We do that in our lives all the time.

Yeah.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
We take something that is not really all that big, but then we put it like right here in the front of our vision, so the only thing we can possibly see is that issue or that problem, and we're just forcing it to look bigger than it really is.

Yeah.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
And what prayer does is it forces our perspective not on the circumstances, not on the stuff, not on the problems; it forces our perspective onto God.

And when we do that, that perspective shift, man, you realize, "Okay, I don't even have to make God big because he already is."

But how many scriptures talk about magnify the name of the Lord, right?

That that's for our benefit; it's not for his, right?

Like God doesn't need an attaboy from us.

Like God doesn't need us to be like, "Wow, God, you're awesome."

No, no, that's for our benefit because that's forcing our perspective to say, "I'm not going to focus on this situation. I'm going to put my focus and my attention on this great big God."

It builds your faith, you know, what you believe about God and what you trust him to do because the more you say things out loud, the more that you start getting into your head and into your heart, and you start believing, and you start living it.

And then you work your way into alignment with that change in perspective.

And it's a beautiful thing. I love it. It kind of all works together.

Here's the elephant in the room though. We got this no-no word, and really it comes about because a GPS is fantastic if you use it.

And you've been guilty—this is therapy session again—you've been guilty sometimes of following a GPS until you thought you knew best.

Yep.

**Soul**
And then—

**Foreign**
It's always interested me because you don't necessarily even turn off the GPS.

Like sometimes I've seen you do it where you like power— a lot of times the GPS is still saying, "Turn right," and you're like, "No, no, I'm just gonna go ahead."

**Soul**
Yep.

**Foreign**
I'm just gonna go straight.

**Soul**
Like it'll reroute at some point; it'll be fine.

**Foreign**
I know where I am; it'll figure it out.

So the really—the only reason I even fight with it, I'm like, "Stop telling me where to go. I know what I'm doing."

It's like, "Why are we in a sketchy neighborhood right now? Like why did it take us 30 minutes to go 15 minutes away?"

**Soul**
So bad.

**Foreign**
I cannot—I can tell about many stories of when I've been just driving, and I'm like, "Oh, don't—don't be a stop sign. There's—don't be a stop sign."

Like I just want to get out of here.

Like I don't know these people; it's sketchy neighborhoods.

**Soul**
Yeah, so I'll be like, "Hablo español."

**Foreign**
[Laughter]

**Soul**
So a GPS, it's only good when you follow it. The guidance of the Holy Spirit being aligned with his will only works when you're submitted to his will.

Yeah.

**Foreign**
And so it's one of those things where knowing it is not enough.

**Soul**
Yeah, yeah.

**Foreign**
You've got to be surrendered to it.

**Soul**
Yeah, because I can know that God wants me to go left, and I can still choose to go right.

Yeah, yeah.

**Foreign**
And that's not alignment. Alignment only happens when we surrender.

Obedience happens in that act of surrender, and God, I'm gonna do this.

Another something that is very sad is that there's a lot of people that I know who have the direction. You know, they have the full address, and they know that God had called them for something specific, and they are not living to their full potential.

Yeah.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
Because they never followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Yep.

**Soul**
And they knew that they needed to write the book, and they knew that they needed to accomplish things or to preach or to do things for God that he had called them to and showed them that that's where they were gonna be, and they never arrived there.

And I think that that is—that is a scary place to be because then you live with all that regret and with all that anguish and with all the baggage that came from not following what God had called you to do.

And it is not that—and I am not saying at all that if you just follow the GPS, it's gonna be roses all over the place.

He may be leading you through a sketchy neighborhood on purpose.

Like it may be that it is difficult and that it is gonna take everything in you to be able to move forward.

But when you are doing the will of God, when you really are following and just allowing God to be the guide, you will be where he wants you to be, and there's no better place to be than in the will of God.

But there's so many people that just give up.

Yeah.

**Soul**
And then like there they get tired, and they just decide to jump.

I'm just gonna park here, you know?

Or I'm just gonna turn right and just forget about the address.

I'm just not going.

And I don't want anybody to short-live the life that God has for them.

**Foreign**
Yeah, yeah.

**Soul**
Yeah, I actually just read, I think it was yesterday or the day before, the rich young ruler that came. Jesus said, "What do I got to do?"

And Jesus tells him, "Hey, do this, do this, do this."

And he's like, "I've done all of that."

And he says, "Awesome, sell all your stuff and come follow me."

And it just says the man went away sad.

Yep.

**Foreign**
And it's like, dude, you literally knew the will of God.

Like God literally just told you, "Come follow me," and you went the other direction.

Yeah, ouch.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
Like imagine if he had gone with God.

What stories would we have read in the Bible about his life?

Yeah.

**Soul**
Of what he would have done for the gospel.

How could that story continued or changed?

Man, it's sobering, but I think a lot of people—this word surrender is the no-no word.

It's the unpleasant word because, you know, especially as Americans, like we don't surrender.

We don't back down; we don't give up.

But to say, "God, you're sovereign; I'm not. God, you are God, and I'm not."

And so I'm very humbling.

Oh man, I'm gonna surrender my will and my thoughts and my plans and my dreams.

I'm going to surrender all of it to you, and then you get married, and it's like, "I've got plans for this marriage," but I'm gonna surrender this marriage to you.

And then you start having kids, and you're like, "God, I got plans for my kids, but I'm gonna surrender my kids and my plans for my kids to you."

Like that is such a hard thing to do, and I think for a lot of people, we'll kind of close off talking about this.

I think for a lot of people, they don't surrender because of fear.

Yeah.

I think that it's a scary thing as the unknown, you know?

Like what is God gonna ask of me?

It's the unknown, but it's also like this preconceived notion or this idea that, "Well, because I'm surrendered to God, that means I'm going to have a horrible life."

Like because I'm surrendered to God, that means I'm gonna, you know, live in a monastery somewhere, and I'm gonna, you know, have no shoes and no car, and I'm gonna be persecuted, right?

Like, yeah, and I think part of that comes from we read the scripture; we read about the disciples, and it's like, "Man, the disciples had nothing good."

Like as far as like stuff, as far as like comfort, as far as like, "Man, I want to have a nice house to lay my head down in. I wanna drive a car that, you know, people are like, 'Hey, that's a nice car,' not a, 'Oh man, you're still driving that thing.'"

Like, you know, you want the luxuries; you want the comforts.

And sometimes we feel like, "Man, if I surrender to God, I'm not going to be able to do any of these things."

Yeah, and like let's talk about that a little bit because for me, that couldn't be further from the truth.

And you laid out a few really good reasons in the message on Sunday of why we can trust God when we surrender to him.

Let's talk about that a little bit.

So like one of them was the fact that he is good, right?

**Soul**
Yeah, yeah.

**Foreign**
I think there's a lot of misconceptions about surrendering, you know?

Like you feel like it's a life of misery, a life of no fun, a life of burden, like, you know, all of this bad stuff that comes with surrendering, you know?

Like now you're a slave; now you just have no say on anything.

And the thing is that God is a good God, that he wants you to be happy.

But I think that we just—in our society right now, we are so influenced by putting ourselves first, you know, in all of this self-care, which is important.

Like take care of yourself, but we prioritize everything about us, and we want to self-promote us.

And it is about for the protagonist to remember.

Yeah, like it is our plan, so it is our ideals, and it is all about how we're gonna move up in life.

And I think that in God's goodness, he has placed that desire in us to get better, to get creative, to be inventive, to have things.

You know, like that's why there's so many brilliant minds creating all kinds of technologies, you know, kinds of things, because that is something that God has placed in us.

So it is not that God doesn't want you to succeed and to have advantages and stuff like that, but he wants you to rearrange your priorities and what it is that you are going to consider the most important thing in your life.

But he's good, and he wants you to have joy, and he wants you to find pleasure in life.

He wants you to enjoy the days.

Like Jesus said, "I have come so that you can have a life that is abundant."

Like he didn't come so that you could be bound and sad and depressed every day because you're doing the will of God.

He wanted us to have a life of abundance.

He's a good God, and we just need to trust that in his goodness, he knows best.

Does that mean everybody gets a Lamborghini?

**Soul**
No, no, no.

**Foreign**
That doesn't mean that all of us are going to be millionaires.

It doesn't mean that, you know, like I think it's a three-story house and, you know, but we can be content.

Yeah.

**Soul**
Yeah.

**Foreign**
And what he allows us to have and be good stewards of that and still see his goodness in it.

Yeah, and that doesn't mean that you don't dream and that you don't work hard to maybe get better things if that's what you want, you know?

Like if you really are applying yourself because you will like a better home or because you will like a better vehicle or because you will like a lot more, be more fluid in your finances, I think that those disciplines are good.

And it is a good thing for you to budget and to do the things that you know how to do so that you can be in a better place.

But I think that it is trusting in his goodness, not settling in his goodness.

I think that's a different thing.

**Soul**
Absolutely.

**Foreign**
And you said something there, I did totally off subject, but like the wisdom and the choices that we make doing all these right things.

Some of us want to ignore doing all that so we can just pray for that lottery ticket, right?

And it's like, okay, yeah, prayer is not your path to get around responsibility.

Like prayer is not your way of, "Okay, I didn't study for this test, so I'm just gonna pray that God gives me the wisdom to be able to pass the test, reveal to me all of the answers, give me all of the information that I didn't study at all."

Yeah, I don't know.

Like prayer is not your way of bypassing what you're supposed to be doing, right?

It comes alongside what you're supposed to be doing.

But I got a question for you, Soul. So you surrendered your life to God. You went to a pretty intense internship program in Mexico. You ended up marrying a white boy from Chicago.

You moved to the States away from all of your family. You're serving as a pastor. You're surrendered to God. Are you having fun?

**Soul**
I'm having fun.

**Foreign**
I'm having fun.

And honestly, there's a lot of things that sometimes I look back and I'm like, "I've missed this. I miss that."

You know, especially about being far away from my country and my people.

But when I see all of the things that God has done in my life and in this journey, I am grateful.

I am—not everything has been easy. Not everything has been just black and white.

You know, there's a lot of things that I have had to work—a lot of things that moving here kind of set me back.

You know, I have always been very bubbly and very talkative and stuff, and I remember the first few years that I was here, I barely talked to anybody because I just didn't know how I fit.

I didn't know how to fully communicate with people, and like, "Are they gonna understand?"

Like I realize humor here is different than humor in Mexico, so I couldn't just go to somebody and laugh at their shoes.

It was just stuff like that, and I was like, "Okay, different, okay, different."

Just, you know, but I think that seeing the journey and where God has placed me and how God has allowed me to get to where I am today, I am grateful.

I am grateful that I had said yes, and I am grateful that I have followed even when I didn't understand or when I was scared or when I was just like, "What is happening now?"

You know, like I think that there's things that you miss, you know?

Like every time that I see or that I get pictures of my family celebrating something together, and I'm like, "I'm the only one that is not there."

Okay, thanks.

But then you realize that what you're doing is worth it.

Yeah, you know, it is worth it missing a bunch of different things that you wish you didn't miss, but because you are missing that, you are able to preach the gospel to other people and to get closer to God and to start raising a family that is following God.

It's worth it.

**Foreign**
Yeah, well, thank you, Soul, for proving that you can surrender to God and life doesn't have to be awful as a result.

There's joy.

**Soul**
There's joy.

Like being in his will is a good thing.

Yeah, and surrendering to that will, even when it seems like, "But God, my plans seem a lot more fun."

Like mine are way more enjoyable looking, but I'm going to surrender to your will.

There's still joy there, and I would argue that it surpasses anything that you could have done on your own because—and it really takes us to the second thing that you talked about on Sunday about surrender is not a bad thing because when we do, God gives us a heart for the things that we're doing.

Like with David's life, he talks about how he had a heart for the will of God.

He had a heart for the word of God, for the teachings and the law of God.

Like his heart was given over to those things, and I think so many times—and I've seen this a lot with like new believers where it's like, "Man, on Saturday, it was like I'm living for the club and the drink and the whatever."

Got saved on Sunday, and all of a sudden, it's like Tuesday, they're like, "The things that used to be everything to me are nothing now."

Yeah, I don't even want that stuff anymore.

That's not the case for everybody, but so many have where it's like, "Man, I stepped into the will of God, and all of a sudden my heart for things changed."

Like the things that I used to flock to for my entertainment and my joy, like those things are empty to me now.

Yeah, like that's a beautiful thing that when you do surrender to God, he brings you along that path of saying, "Hey, here's a new heart. Here's some new passions."

You know, you used to get excited about this; now you're going to get excited about this.

But—and that happens when you're close to God.

Yeah, you know, when you are spending time with God, when you're starting to feel his heart for his people, you know, that you'll realize that you giving up some things so that others know that there's a God that loves them, that there's a God that died for them so they could have an everlasting life.

You know, and all of these things, that makes you more excited.

You know, then there's like just—it doesn't matter, you know, my life or the gospel because you'll realize how important that is to God, and you love God so much, and you're so passionate about him and about what he wants, then now you want the same thing.

You know, that you cannot wait for your next paycheck so that you can go somewhere and you can do something for other people.

Like it is—and I think that that is when you see the full plenitude of life when you are saying, "I'm gonna do whatever needs to be done so that other people know about Jesus."

Because if you ask me, "What is the will of God?" Well, the will of God is for everybody to be saved and to come to knowledge of Jesus.

That is like in a nutshell, that is the will of God.

That's why Jesus came to die, so that we could have a restored relationship with Jesus.

So if you want to know what the will of God for your life is, like just as a blank statement for every single one of us is for us to know God and for us to go around telling other people about the love of Jesus.

That's it. Keep it simple.

**Soul**
Yeah, yeah.

**Foreign**
That's why the Bible says, you know, that that is his will, that none of us will be lost, but that all of us will come to salvation through Jesus Christ.

So yeah, that's it.

Like it doesn't say anything about your book; it doesn't say anything about your car; it doesn't say anything about yourself or about your business.

Like all of those things are a bonus for your life.

Yeah, but his will for you is to be saved.

**Soul**
Yeah, beautiful. I love it.

I think we'll wrap up with that. Any kind of closing remarks, thoughts, advice for somebody that's like, "Look, I want to be in the will of God. I want to be aligned with God. What do I need to do?"

**Soul**
So I will say that aligning to God is worth it.

I want you to just always think about that. Like when there's moments that are difficult and when there's things that God is asking of you or when you just feel like that notch of the Holy Spirit, just remember that it's worth it.

And the way that you get strong and the way that you get that heart to be able to do it and the discipline to follow through only comes through prayer.

Because it is in that moment when you are connecting with God in prayer that he gives you the strength and that he gives you the replenishment that you need so that you can follow through.

We cannot do it on our own. It is not in our own strength; it is not in our own power.

You may be the most disciplined person that I have ever met, and yet if you don't have the Holy Spirit working in you and you're not connected to God, when God requires something that you really want, you could turn it down, you know?

Or you can quit really quickly.

So connect with God every day. Make prayer a priority, and you will start hearing the heart of God, and you will start being able to identify those places in your life that you need to lay down a little bit easier.

**Foreign**
It's awesome. I love it.

Thanks, babe. Nice hanging out with you.

**Soul**
It was great being here.

**Foreign**
We talk too much, but we always do.

Good, hey, so this is kind of the end of our three-week series on prayer. If you want to check out any of those messages we talked about, we pray to connect to God, we pray to receive from God, and we pray to align with God.

You can check out all three of those messages or the podcast from them on our website or on YouTube. Love to see you