Forgiveness & Repentance: A Journey

All are crazy, but I'm gonna watch it. I watched it, and I was like, "Oh, this is actually pretty good."

Welcome to Between Sermons, where we are continuing the conversation from our Sunday message. As always, you don't have to have listened to the Sunday sermon to get anything out of this podcast, though it could help. Today, I have a very special guest, Pastor Derek Greaves. It's taken a while to get him in the chair, but now that we finally cornered him, this is gonna be fun. Derek is a musician extraordinaire, though he would say he's just a basic piano player still trying to figure it out. He and his wife are the newest pastors on staff here.

We're in a series called At The Movies, which we've been doing for about 20 years. We take some popular movies and don't try to preach the movie, but rather a Biblical principle. Jesus often used stories to get a deep spiritual truth across to his audience, and we do the same. Our movie this week was Top Gun: Maverick, the sequel to Tom Cruise's best movie.

I didn't get into Top Gun until last year. A lot of people were recommending the Maverick movie, and I was introduced to it by a bunch of women. I'm an action guy, so I watched it and was surprised to find it was actually pretty good. I consider myself a movie buff, especially when it comes to action movies. If it's just Derek and Katie's movie night and I get to pick, I'm picking action all day. The cars blowing up, people flying, people fighting—I don't like to celebrate death, but if it's pretty violent, I'm right there with it. My wife is always into telenovelas and rom-coms, and I run away from that if I'm holding the controller.

Last week, we had my parents on the show, and the only thing they do for their day off, for as long as I can remember, is go to the movies. They have seen some of the worst movies ever just because it was the only thing at the theater at the time that they hadn't seen. It reminds me of a time when I was young, and we used to do this thing where we would watch one movie, and if it was over, we would just hop to another theater. I remember one time we almost made it to all the movies. I have pre-save days now, but when I was newlywed, my wife and I would do theater hopping. We'd look at the movie times and be like, "Hey, this one's two hours, it starts at 11. There's this movie at one; we can totally do it." I'm not a sneak-into-the-movie-theater guy, but I love going to the movies. Movie theater popcorn is probably the best popcorn you can get.

I agree. When it comes to popcorn, I definitely go to the counter, but the candy I may still kind of linger in the sneak-into-the-theater situation. This is because you can pay five dollars for a box of candy at the movie theater, but you can get the same exact box at the dollar store. It just doesn't make sense to be robbed at the movie theater.

I have gotten away from the movie theater experience because the movies can cost a lot of money, and it feels like you have to take out a mortgage before you go. I am more into making my home like a theater experience so I can pause the movie, get a snack, or even dinner.

Confession time: while living in Mexico, my wife and I smuggled a large Domino's Pizza into a movie. We are still not sure how we got away with it, but we stuffed the pizza box in my shirt and hugged each other so nobody would see it. I can outdo that one, though. When I was younger, I went to the movies with my auntie, and she brought a big purse. We had no idea what was in it until we started passing down aluminum foil-covered things. It was a sandwich, and then five minutes into the movie, she pulled out fried chicken. Pizza is hard to sneak into the movies, but having fried chicken in the movies is pretty impressive.

Top Gun did an amazing job of presenting us with a dilemma that they didn't know how to answer. They wrote the line, "I don't know how," and it's true; they didn't know how. The problem they present to us is that you can't move forward while you're still looking back. At 38 years old, I have a lot of life to sift through, but there are some moments that stick out to me. When I was 12, my father left the house. He was the deacon at the church, so we were raised to be great Christians and to do all the right things. Later on, he decided he was a changed man, and we saw a different side of him. It felt like he had stabbed us in the back and left us out in the water. I had to step up as the man of the house at 12 years old. My mom was hurting, crying, and going through everything a woman would go through when her husband isn't the man she thought he was. I stopped speaking to my dad when I was 17 and didn't talk to him again until I was 33. I had just met my wife, Katie, a year ago. I hadn't talked to my dad in a while, so that was a journey for me, learning how to get to that place of forgiveness. I didn't realize how it was impacting my future. I was talking to a friend recently who was in the same place, feeling like he had let go of something, but it was still sticking to him. I'm curious how to walk through forgiveness in that case, and how to keep faith when a Christian hurts you, especially when it's your father who was a deacon at the church.

Growing up, my faith was always important to me. My mom and dad made sure my foundation was solid in Christ, and that God was bigger than them. Even when I didn't notice it was important, they made sure I knew there was a higher authority in my life. My foundation in faith has always been solid. Growing up, I was always reading the Christian stories and knowing that God could destroy a whole city with fire and brimstone and flood the whole earth. This instilled a fear of God in my life. As I got older, I realized that I didn't have a genuine experience with God. I asked Him who He was and what people had been telling me about Him my whole life. God flung the door open, and I had a split-second experience with Him. I heard a lot of testimonies about people who had similar experiences, and I could identify with them. This is how I came into a relationship with God. Even when I had questions in my faith, I leaned on Him and allowed Him to show me who He is.

My mom was really good at speaking in Scripture, and she would always tell us that the danger is when we look at a person as our avenue to God. When the pastor messes up, it can feel like we don't have a connection to God. The way to hold on to our faith, even when Christians mess up, is to understand that Christians aren't perfect and that we are in need of a savior. When our connection to God is straight through the Holy Spirit, then we can hold on to our faith even when someone who should have had authority over us fails. We recognize that our relationship is with God and not with the flawed individual. We can hold on to the perfect God and let the flawed individual be flawed.

It wasn't until I got older that I realized that the words my mom had implanted in our hearts were now hidden in my heart. So when things come up in life, I can hear the scripture that my mom had taught us. One thing she would say was to not put your trust in man, because man will always fail you. No matter how much hope, love, or faith you have in another person, they will always fail you. So, I have to walk with grace for everyone around me. To answer the question of how I got to forgiveness, it was all built on the foundation of loving one another and forgiving as God has forgiven us. It was easier said than done, as it took me about 20 years to even pick up the phone and say, "Hey Dad, I'm just..." Even then, it was just like I don't really care what you got going on; I just know I need to forgive you. I felt that before I got married, I should at least let him know that I'm moving on to the next part of life.

When we think of forgiveness, we think of saying, "Okay, I forgive you," and moving on. But what I loved about the sermon yesterday was how to forgive with boundaries. It's always been a struggle for me to understand how to forgive someone the same way that Christ has forgiven us, with restoration in mind, but also have boundaries to keep me from being the abused one. It has been a struggle to understand how to walk with the forgiveness that Christ has for us. We often hear in church that when someone slaps you in the face, you turn the other cheek. However, this is reading too much into the text, as there is nothing in the text that indicates that. Paul does give Titus a three-strike rule, where if someone messes up, tell them, and if they do it again, have nothing else to do with them.

When it comes to forgiveness, it is a huge subject matter and one that could be preached on every Sunday for 52 weeks and still not cover it all. There is a dilemma of how many times do we forgive and how open should our lives be. The only answer is to listen to the Holy Spirit. It is also advised to get Christian counseling, as a secular counselor will point you in a different direction.

The Holy Spirit has told prophets in the Old Testament to marry a prostitute multiple times, even if there is infidelity. It has also told wives to stay with husbands who have cheated on them. It is hard for a preacher to stand on a stage and say things for an entire crowd when they do not know the individual situation, which is why counseling is important. When it comes to infidelity, the Bible tells us that we have the right to leave if we choose to. However, the Holy Spirit may tell us to stay. One powerful story is of a woman who chose to stay with her partner despite his infidelity. She chose to lay on top of him in their bed and tell him that she was not going anywhere. This was a powerful moment for the broken man, as she was choosing to stay and rebuild the trust that had been broken.

At the same time, it is important to recognize the difference between repentance and simply being sorry for getting caught. Repentance is recognizing that what was done was wrong and doing whatever is necessary to not do it again. This could be blocking all electronics for pornography or not being in a room alone with someone for infidelity. It is important to follow the Holy Spirit's guidance in these situations, as it may be different for each person. Jesus himself said that if it is infidelity, we have the right to leave, but the Holy Spirit may tell us to stay.

I'm reminded of how Jesus talks about if you marry someone who's not of the faith, your faith will be imparted into your spouse or will help them get to where they need to go. Going back to my father, all those years I was walking, trying to find forgiveness and trying to find the importance of why I would say to myself, "I forgive my dad; I just don't have to talk to him." I created that boundary, but what happened was I was losing years of my dad. Fast forward, me and my dad are cool now. He came to the wedding, celebrated with us, and was also there with my mom. It was good to see that they were able to be in the same space together and still be cordial. My mom is a very devout Christian, so she still kind of struggles with that, with the forgiveness part. I believe that she's forgiven him, but I also believe that there is a Holy Spirit and something happening in her that's saying, "Chase after, chase after, chase after." That's why it was interesting for me to hear you talk about forgiveness and boundaries, because that's still a growing process.

We'll always try and figure out, as Paul says, "Not that I've already achieved it." When we're setting up boundaries, which I think are healthy and necessary, we also have to look at what is motivating the boundary. When we build boundaries out of bitterness, there's no forgiveness, though, because you put up the boundary not to protect yourself or your family, but because of resentment and anger. To me, that just says that genuine forgiveness isn't there. You haven't really walked through that act of forgiveness because what we looked at on Sunday is Paul uses two different words for forgive and forgiveness in the Greek. I didn't tell people what the words were because I can't even pronounce them. It was like carolsomai and something else. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I know how to research, and that's where I found it out.

But the first word for forgiveness talks about canceling the debt. If I'm putting up the boundary out of bitterness, then I have not actually canceled the debt. I'm using the boundary as the payment of the debt. It's like the pain payment that you have to pay now because you messed up is this barrier that I've put up. It's one of those things where it's when do you know you're in the right and when you're in the wrong? Listen to the Holy Spirit. That sounds like a whole nother sermon we ain't got time for. Forgiveness out of bitterness is an interesting thought because I think that's more common than we even know. It's like when my wife is mad at me, and she gives me the silent treatment. That is the punishment, right? For my crime, you're going to be quiet. When I'm not a talker, that's kind of an ironic punishment.

Katie and I were just talking yesterday about forgiveness and repentance. We were talking about how we forgive for the sake of being forgiving, for our own health, and to make sure that we can thrive in the faith and that God will be pleased with our walk. To whom much is given, much is required. God has forgiven us, and He requires us to share that same love. The repentance part is interesting because repentance leads us to relationship. God has forgiven us, and we're walking in forgiveness, but if we never repent, then we can never experience the relationship that God wants for us.

In layman's terms, we were talking about how we can forgive all day, but unless the other person comes to us and says they know that hurt us and they don't want to displease us, make us cry, or make us frustrated, and they'll try their best to not do that thing again, then we can never experience the relationship that God wants for us.

I remember a few years ago when I was a kid, I had a best friend who lived next door to me. We were best friends, and we played every day. One day, we picked up his dad's golf clubs and were playing with them in the yard. I was trying to hit a golf ball, and I swung the club with all my might, but I missed the ball, and all I heard was a scream. I looked around, and my friend's face was all bloodied up. He ran into the house, and his mom was going crazy. I felt so guilty and bad about what had happened.

That same day, I went back to his house and apologized. He eventually healed from the injury, but there was a scar that remained on his face. A few years later, I ran into him, and he never even mentioned the scar. It was the repentance and my apology that helped us move past it. I told him I would make sure we didn't do anything that caused harm, and I think that kind of helped us move forward in our relationship.

Opportunities to make the right decision, and you didn't, and so now you have to deal with the consequences of that. Repentance is the first step in that process of dealing with the consequences of your actions.

I realized with that story, "Man, I'm so sorry; I'll never do that again," that he was able to trust me, and we were able to play, you know, still be best friends even with the stitches in his face. What's crazy about that, though, is you had a real-world experience of somebody walking around with scar tissue because of what you did. There are people walking around every day with scars from what we've done to them. They may not be as visible as your friend's scar right on the side of his temple, but how many people in our lives are walking around with scars from the things that we said, the things that we did, the things we didn't do?

I almost feel like the modern church is a little bit guilty of not talking about repentance enough. We talk about God's love and God's grace and God's forgiveness, but how many of the scriptures talk about repentance first? What fixed it in your illustration is the repentance. We have this mentality in modern Christianity of like we're so awesome and we're so great, but we are also at the same time horrible people. We live in a fallen world, and without the grace of God, who are we? We have to operate and walk in and live in repentance, both to God and to others. It starts with repentance to God, then we receive the grace, then we receive the love. But if there's no repentance, we have to deal with the guilt in our own life. The healthy way of dealing with the guilt in your own life is to actually go to that person for repentance, understanding that everything we taught on Sunday about boundaries and forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation.

If you go to that person in repentance expecting or demanding that they stay with you, it may not work that way. You gave up the right when you made that mistake, and now you have to deal with the consequences of that. Repentance is the first step in that process of dealing with the consequences of your actions.

One calls, and like you set up, like there was a plan. A youth pastor heard a guy talking about teenagers in his youth ministry that got pregnant. They had come to him and said they had had sex, and the first question he asked was if they had used a condom. He was heartbroken because it seemed like they had planned it out in advance. This is our sin; we premeditate and put the pieces together. We have to operate in repentance, which is not just saying sorry, but a change of mind and direction. We have to turn away from sin and follow righteousness. We have to change our behavior and repent to the person we hurt, even if it was unintentional. We have to apologize for our careless behavior and set boundaries so we are no longer careless. Repentance should be a cultural norm, like breathing, and we should always be repenting to God for the things we don't even know we have committed.

I'm learning that repentance is a big part of our walk as Believers.

It's interesting that you would bring up repentance because it's not a common part of Christian culture. We often think of repentance as something we do when we mess up, but the Bible tells us to turn from our wicked ways. David said that God created him a clean heart and renewed him a right spirit. This shows us how important our relationship with God is. We should also strive to have a unified relationship with each other as the body of Christ. If we offend someone, intentional or unintentional, we should be willing to talk about how to get unoffended and apologize.

Forgiveness is also a big part of our walk as Believers. I had to learn to forgive my father for things he had done, and it was a freeing moment in my life. I had to repent to him for responding in an unchristian way. Forgiveness is not just about saying, "I forgive you," but also about letting go of the hurt. Repentance goes both ways, and we should strive to not hurt each other.

We need to approach God with a repentant heart. We must start by magnifying Him and recognizing how great He is in comparison to our own sinful nature. We must then repent for our sins, acknowledging that any time we do something wrong, the first offense is against God. After we have done this, we can then give Him our list of needs. It is also important that we show the same forgiveness to others that we have received from God. This is not something we can do in our own strength, but only through the grace of God.

We always have to connect to the source of forgiveness because when we forgive, we tend to put different things in place to earn it. Instead of relying on those things, we should rely on the power of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost to give us the power to forgive.

I love how Top Gun ended with the two characters playing half-naked volleyball. It showed the relationship between them and how they were able to forgive each other. Tom Cruise pushed Rooster to the ground and said, "Why did you do that?" Rooster replied that he just did what he was told. Tom Cruise said, "Okay," and it was good to see him. Hollywood needs to do better when it comes to forgiveness. It shouldn't be that easy.

I think when two men forgive each other, it's done in a manly way. Derek mentioned how when he and his brothers fight, they punch each other and move on. Top Gun was a great movie, and it made Derek excited because he was a motorcycle enthusiast. He had a vest and shattered his ankle popping wheelies. His mom said he would never get back on another bike, but he got a bigger one after he shattered his ankle.

I twisted my ankle recently, and the Lord saw fit that my bike would get stolen. I accepted it and said, "Okay, Lord, I concur. You got it from here." Seeing the jets zoom through the mountains gave me an adrenaline rush. If you see me pulling up on a bike soon, you'll know it was because of the Lord. Do I need to apologize to Katie or repent to her? Maybe my mom can help.

This has been cool. I'm glad we finally got a chance to hang out on the podcast. We'll bring you back again another time. We're going from Tom Cruise to Tom Hanks because we're looking at a movie called Otto, which I never heard of until our sermon planning started talking about it. It's actually pretty cool. We'll be back next week. Take it easy. Thank you.