Understanding God's Character Amid Life's Challenges

In this sermon, I explored the concept of God's character and the importance of understanding His nature in the face of life's challenges. I emphasized that the gospel is good news, and that many people have not truly heard this good news due to the destruction they see around them. I discussed the importance of not discrediting God's character, even when we face difficulties or questions that we cannot answer. I highlighted that we often focus on the reality and pain of our situations, rather than on the One who is in control of all things. I also touched on the idea that Jesus is not a king who authors pain to harm and destroy people, but rather, He is a king who can use pain for His purposes.

In the second part of the sermon, I addressed the complexity of explaining the infinite nature of God to finite beings. I acknowledged that there are people who are more knowledgeable in certain fields, but emphasized that the truth of the scriptures supports these fields. I also discussed the importance of not hiding behind the phrase "because the Bible said so," but rather, teasing out the truth and reality of the scriptures. I concluded by reminding the congregation that while we should strive to make advances in various fields, we must remember that these things will not save us - only Jesus can.

Key Takeaways:
- The gospel is good news, and it's important to focus on God's character, especially in times of difficulty ([41:41 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).
- Jesus is a king who can use pain for His purposes, not a king who authors pain to harm and destroy people ([44:02 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).
- It's crucial to not just say "because the Bible said so," but to tease out the truth and reality of the scriptures ([29:51 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).
- While we should strive to make advances in various fields, we must remember that these things will not save us - only Jesus can ([38:09 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).
- We may not always get the answer to our questions, but we will get the love of God ([45:22 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).

Bible Reading:
1. Romans 8:22 - Creation groans [32:52 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]
2. Genesis 3:17-19 - The fall and the curse on creation [33:26 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]
3. John 19:2 - The crown of thorns on Jesus's head [44:02 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]

Observation Questions:
1. What does it mean when it says "creation groans" in Romans 8:22?
2. How does Genesis 3:17-19 explain the brokenness we see in the world today?
3. How does the crown of thorns on Jesus's head in John 19:2 symbolize Jesus becoming "king over pain"?

Interpretation Questions:
1. How does the groaning of creation in Romans 8:22 relate to the brokenness of the world we see today?
2. How does the curse on creation in Genesis 3:17-19 affect our daily lives and the world around us?
3. What does it mean that Jesus is "king over pain" as symbolized by the crown of thorns in John 19:2?

Application Questions:
1. How does understanding that creation is groaning impact your view of the world's problems and your role in them?
2. In what ways have you personally experienced the effects of the curse on creation mentioned in Genesis 3:17-19?
3. How can understanding Jesus as the "king over pain" change your perspective on personal suffering or hardship?
4. What is one specific way you can respond to the groaning of creation in your daily life?
5. How can you demonstrate to others that Jesus is "king over pain" in a practical way this week?

Day 1: The Illusion of Complete Control

We often fall into the trap of believing that if we can control or fix one aspect of our lives, everything else will fall into place. This is a dangerous illusion that can lead us away from relying on God. We must remember that while we are called to steward God's creation and work towards its restoration, we are not the saviors of the world. Only Jesus can truly save us ([37:34 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).

Ecclesiastes 7:14 - "When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider this: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, no one can discover anything about their future."

Reflection: What is one area of your life where you are trying to maintain control instead of surrendering it to God?

Day 2: The Character of God

In times of suffering and pain, we often question God's character. However, we must remember that God is not the author of pain, but the King over it. He can use our pain for our good, not because He causes it, but because He has authority over it ([44:02 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).

Job 42:2 - "I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Reflection: How can you trust God's character in the midst of your current struggles?

Day 3: The Love of the Who

We may not always understand the 'why' behind our circumstances, but we can always trust in the 'who' - God's love for us. Even when we don't get the answers we seek, we can find comfort and assurance in the person of Jesus ([45:22 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).

1 John 4:16 - "So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him."

Reflection: How can you lean into God's love when you don't understand the 'why' of your circumstances?

Day 4: The Call to Serve

As followers of Jesus, we are called to be His hands and feet in the world. This means actively working to share the gospel and serve our communities. However, this work should not be done out of a sense of obligation, but out of a love for God and His people ([46:32 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).

1 Peter 4:10 - "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms."

Reflection: How can you use your unique gifts to serve your community this week?

Day 5: The Groaning of Creation

The world around us is broken and groaning under the weight of sin. This groaning is a reminder of the fallen state of creation and the need for redemption. As followers of Jesus, we are called to participate in the restoration of creation, not as its saviors, but as stewards of God's good creation ([33:26 <3gw0mSG-sTg>]).

Romans 8:22 - "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time."

Reflection: How can you participate in the restoration of creation in your daily life?

Friends don't let friends pick rap names; the streets did. Did you know? Oh my gosh, the streets of where? Uh, that's the streets of Bellevue. I think it sounds like the streets of Candyland.

Now the streets of Candyland! I'm gonna use that with Mean Streets. That's right, YouTube! Oh man, we just said it. We just keep streets of Candyland.

Um, yeah, so, uh, Javon and I have a mutual friend named Brandon. Uh, Brandon and I linked up, and I feel like both Brandon, my relationship, and your and my relationship sort of started by doing some student ministry stuff together. But really, I feel like where we became friends was in both cases trying to help these young men pursue women who I think—I don't know their level of interest in them—but now they're both married to them! Oh my gosh!

And so I tried to just be Dr. Love a little bit to help him out and be a sounding board. I know, I know. Um, I'm out here. Yeah, that's fair. It's totally fair. I received that.

But yeah, then, I mean, I think Javon and I are just kind of cut from the same cloth in terms of ministry philosophy. And, um, you know, obviously, Javon is a tremendously gifted communicator, and so I've enjoyed being able to kind of bounce ideas off of him. I think we are very active in the kind of Marco Polo world, so we've stayed active even just checking in with each other once we didn't live anywhere near each other.

And he would come speak for me from time to time in Colorado, and especially this conversation. Um, I knew the kind of voice that I wanted to bring to this part of the series, and Siobhan was gracious enough to bring it.

So, but yeah, I think if you were here, you listened to it, or you caught up, uh, it's just—I think Javon is a super unique combination of gifts. Like, he's strategic, he's thoughtful, he's a great leader, he understands kind of systems and volunteer culture, but he's also like a knock-down communicator. He's got some of that, like, kind of poetry in it, but he's thoughtful—really, really thoughtful.

And so, yeah, that's just a combination I envy, and because I can't copy it, I'll just have him come bring it. Perfect! I will trade you.

I'm perfect. That's so funny! Yeah, man, I love Phil, man. And you know, we talk at least once a week, whether it's by phone, FaceTime, or Marco Polo. And you know, it's one of those things—I even do think that in today's date, it's lost a little bit about just friendship. And then even like, even though seasons of life change, we always know that sometimes relationships change and how they feel, and you just have to figure out how to kind of adapt with them.

And so Phil's really been a dude who I've just respected a ton. His wisdom and encouragement is like none other. He is taller and lighter-skinned than Yoda.

And, uh, he's true. That's true. He's been a blessing. So, um, yeah, meeting him, getting a chance to do that, and you know, he was helpful and instrumental in helping me figure out how to, you know, pursue my wife of now 12 years. We celebrated this month!

Awesome! Congrats! Yes, yes! So thankful! And you mentioned you had kids as well?

Yeah, I got two kids.

Okay, um, Ryan and Sophia.

Hey, Ryan and Sophia! Maddie loves you!

Uh, yeah, they are five and seven, and they are whirlwinds and crazy beautiful, and I love them. Just—they're just amazing. It feels so good to be able to be a parent. It's very tiring, yeah.

But, um, and sometimes personal space is not a word or a phrase, but it's been such a blessing. And then my wife, Heather, she lives—she previously had lived in the Philippines and cool places like, you know, California and Vancouver with her family. And now, you know, the majority of our family lives now in Seattle, and then extended family all over the place.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds like you guys go back quite a bit. I want to know, Phil, what's something that we should know about Javon that we don't know about him right now?

Oh man, hey, you get to go after, so you can start.

Well, I feel like if you didn't already know this, I was going to tell you that he was a retired rapper. Because people think I'm joking, but I'm not! Like, and he throws shade on himself, but you're a good dude.

Um, uh, I think, um, probably a little bit more serious, but, uh, Javon was like really involved on the team at Mars Hill, kind of like right up into the, uh, time when—like if you've listened to that podcast, Javon has—like he first, he was in it, you know?

And so we were—I was on staff at a church, uh, five minutes away from their broadcast location in the same town. And, um, so, you know, praying for Javon and kind of just hearing updates about how he was walking through all that stuff. And the Lord was really gracious to help him be able to leave well, and, um, pretty divine timing.

But, um, yeah, I think that he brings, uh, I think a lot of different church experience to the table. But candidly, like most people, when they go through an experience like that, they leave it pretty jaded, pretty cynical of faith in church.

And, um, I think Javon had really wise eyes to be able to see what was happening and what wasn't happening, and to be able to read a situation with nuance that if you weren't in Seattle, uh, you know, that whole situation has no nuance because we don't do nuance well.

And so it's just—we just paint it with broad brushes. But for Javon, that wasn't a podcast; that was part of his life. And so watching how he walked through that, man, was really impressive.

Wow, thanks, man. Yeah, I appreciate you.

You know, what should we know about Phil that we don't know about Phil?

Man, besides his love of Lululemon pants?

Let's go!

Um, I just found that out last night, and apparently I'm going—yeah, I'm gonna take him there. He's been making fun of him like, "Let's try them on, bro!"

So you might not—so today they're doing a Lululemon Peloton collab.

Heck yeah, they are! Come on, let's go!

Okay, yeah, game respects game, real recognize real.

Man, honestly, I think one of the biggest things about Phil is that his temperament and wisdom is like—I've honestly never seen anything like it before.

Um, and there's not like—there's a certain person that in order for you to be able to even give them, like, pieces of yourself, of like trust and of even just vulnerability, like the wisdom and the heart of Phil, like, commands that—not in a way of like, "Give it to me," you know?

It's really in the way of like, "Man, how could you not want to walk with and be in relationship with someone like that?" And the wisdom is just off the charts.

Uh, the attention to detail, the boldness to ask the hard questions, the faith to believe that, you know, the mountain can be moved, and just the reality of saying that what can we do and what's the hard work that we're gonna have to do.

And one of the things that Phil has said, which has been super helpful for me in navigating my pastoral ministry and then also now my wife in the restaurant industry, is that, um, uh, clarity is kindness.

And so as much as you can provide clarity, like just these different things, it's just very kind to people. And so all these different things I've learned from Phil have just been super intentional.

Just is—he is the, like, in the—in the—if he's just like a really good scalpel that is able to remove, like, the things that are harmful or persons in danger of just with his wisdom.

So I've just—I'm just baffled by his wisdom and ability to look at these different things and just call it out, build a plan, and start working on it. And then by the end of it, it's like, "Yo, this is dope! This is like a beautiful masterpiece!"

So, wow, yeah, he's the real deal for real.

Yeah, we're lucky to have him.

Yeah, I'd say we've experienced a lot of that in just the 10 months he's been here.

Is it only been 10 months? I was just doing the math in my head.

Yep, October, right? You started in January?

Yeah, it feels like more than 10 minutes!

Well then you guys are in for blessings!

Well, and I think—I mean, like, wisdom comes with—uh, wisdom comes from life. It comes from pain.

And, you know, I think one of the gifts at Menlo that's, um, you know, like in the season has been that, uh, we've experienced life together and we've experienced pain together.

And there were some pent-up stuff that were hard things that had to get done. And, um, that idea of clarity is kindness, like that's not a—that's not a slogan for me; that's part of my life.

And so we, I think, had a chance to walk through hard things, but hopefully hard things well—not perfectly. I haven't mastered that part yet.

But, uh, and then I think, you know, adding some personal paint onto that, you're always worried like when you don't know somebody, "Hey, is this who they really are?"

Um, and I think, you know, I tell people all the time, like, you should be nervous if you know people who don't have friends that they've been friends with for 15, 20, 25 years.

Like that just tells you something about what happens when they hit pain in their life. And so I'm just, you know, I'm thankful for people like Javon, uh, in my life where, you know, we've gone the distance as friends.

And I'm sure there's times when Javon's been annoyed with me, and like our relationship gets to the other side of it, and we are stronger because of it.

And, um, so I'm hopeful for that at Menlo, and you know, I hope that the scale of all the things that we've had to do in, uh, year one is not the scale of all the things we have to do in year two, that we're able to make incremental progress that's sustainable.

But, uh, yeah, 10 months in, here we are!

Yeah, definitely feels like some—yeah, complicated by personal loss, but it's like a dog year for sure.

Yeah, well, one of the things that I've seen just since I've been here, just visiting, has been really cool to see the energy of, um, people like you guys and the staff.

And it feels like such a cool blessing to see just like how the navigation and just the gifts of all the people and all the things that are new or things that you guys are experiencing or doing is really cool to even just see.

I see Phil with like some young bucks and, uh, and some other seasoned saints as well just being able to tackle anything and everything for the glory of Jesus and for the good of people.

And I think it's just awesome.

Yeah, it's fun! It's really fun!

And there's evidence of like YouTube trusting each other highly and speaking well of each other.

And when I heard we were getting a guest speaker for a series that's already like skeptic-facing, questioning-facing people, and then for Phil to pass that off of "Is God real?" to someone else, I was like, he has to have someone special in mind for this.

Yeah, he's not one—that's not an easy series. It's not an easy ask.

And so, well, initially I wasn't available.

Oh yeah?

Yeah, what you need? I got you!

And I'm just real—I'm really blessed by, and I think our community as well is blessed by your message this past weekend.

And so if you can just summarize it a little bit for those that might have missed it, and then we got some questions for you, and we could dive in from there.

Yeah, I really, you know, just some of those questions, uh, around—I think it's a good question to ask, you know, like, "Is there a God?" I think that's a question that a lot of people ask themselves.

Even if you call yourself a follower of Jesus, you'd like—you don't hit times that do you ask that question? I mean, you should ask that question.

Um, and I think those times are coming if you haven't had them before.

Um, and I think the reality is it makes it more and more real, and the question is a good question.

And oftentimes, one of the ways to find the answer to questions is to ask—not just to answer it, but it's to ask more questions.

And the reality is that I've had a lot of friends, you know, and some of them, as I mentioned in the sermon, that they actually helped me prepare.

So even when me and Phil, we got on our joint and we did the, uh, the Instagram live, like I sent that to my friends who would like helped me prepare for it, and they're like, "Yeah, let's see it! Want to hear!"

So even when I'm preaching that, it's from a perspective of it's not just some ethereal thing in my head that wants to talk about just prove an answer because this is the space that I'm in because I think it's a legitimate question.

And I think once our questions are answered, that's when things can become real or make sense for us.

So to ask the question, "Is there a God?" is very important.

But I do think as important as it is to humanity, I think it's more like popular, like in the West.

I think in other parts of the world, uh, people aren't really asking that question.

There's always been a big kind of background of religion and spirituality, but I think for some reason in the West, especially like in Seattle, I would say Seattle's like—I don't know what we are; we're like D all the above.

Like we have spirituality, we have, you know, we don't believe in God, and then we blame God for all the problems in the world.

And that's some of the things that I kind of started to see more and more.

So I'd say we looked at in the sermon, like how can we prove God's existence? We looked at creation, we looked at conscience, we looked at the reality of evil and pain and suffering as all as, uh, things or lampposts that paint the way and show that there actually is a God versus there is no God.

Yeah, yeah. So speaking of creation, a little question for everybody to answer: what in creation makes you go, "Oh man, yeah, God's super real?"

I'll go first. For me, it's whales. I go whale watching, and they're just so big and majestic, and I'm like, "God is so real and so good! These creatures are incredible!"

It's just mind-blowing. The ocean in general too, but whales specifically are just so cool to me.

It's good! I think for me, um, definitely high, like mountain areas.

Um, like if you get up into the Sierras and are just surrounded by just the smells of the trees that are up there, like they're unlike anything else.

And then the sun feels different because you're at high elevation. You feel different because you're at high elevation.

And I just feel like, like the Sierras was one of God's playgrounds where he's just like, "I'm gonna go off a little bit!"

Like waterfalls and streams, and I can visit the same stretch of river or stream year after year after year, and it will look and feel completely different even though it's the same place.

And how I feel in that, like it will make me feel different.

So yeah, I'm like, obviously, yeah, hello!

Yeah, I mentioned it in the sermon, but like I'd say two things. Number one is like, uh, is your eyes.

Um, our eyes—I didn't mention this in the sermon, but our eyes—like I love that one meme that's like, you know, someone like robbed the bank, and then it's like the picture of it is like all blurry.

But then it's like when you're trying to see your ring camera, that's like you can't—you can't make out the ring camera, but you can make out this other quality of this other picture where it's like we're looking at stars and galaxies, distant galaxies.

You can see all these things, but yeah, I can't see who's on my ring camera.

Um, and then that just makes me think about the eyes and how there's certain things in space that you can see with your eyes that you need to spend like thousands of dollars or millions of dollars for your telescope to even see.

And I'm just like, fam, that's nuts!

Yeah, you know, and to think like cameras have, you know, like the shutter to open and close to capture the light, and then has a sensor to, you know, change the beautifulness of the image.

It's like our eyes do that! Like that's nuts!

Um, and then the other one is just perfect circles of planets.

Oh yeah! Like that is, to me, is just crazy! And they're all moving, and like I'm like, "Come on, fam, that's nuts!"

That just makes me absolutely marvel!

Yeah, yeah, I think, um, I think there's a fine-tuning aspect for sure for me at like a macro and micro level that, um, yeah, we're brilliant.

Like human beings are brilliant and have, uh, continued to build and use tools for our intellect to understand more and more.

And I think inside of a worldview where God is not present, sometimes there can be this idea that eventually everything will be known.

But I think that there's some kind of pride and hubris that's, uh, really revealed in that because at a distance that is not as far as it should be, we are making nothing but guesses as it relates to the universe.

Like we are making nothing but guesses, and they're good guesses, but they're guesses.

And that is, you know, if we're to think about it in terms of the types of distances that we're talking about, getting to Mars is like our interplanetary cul-de-sac.

And that's like, wouldn't it be cool if we could get people there? [Laughter]

Um, and God spoke it into existence! Like it wasn't even in the footnotes; it was just like, "Oh yeah, yeah, like I guess I'm making Earth; I'll make Mars too!"

And then, and then I think on the other side, the like micro fine-tuning that we have—molecular biologists that are looking so granular, so detailed—but once you get too far in the types of like—we still don't know!

The smartest mind in the world does not really understand how atoms work.

There are binding agents that we are just making really good assumptions about, but they're assumptions.

And I think, um, there is a point that I think when you talked about it this weekend that, you know, when we think about, uh, Romans 1, that these things are written on our hearts, right?

Like I just think that there's something—if you look at this, you're either acknowledging I'm fine with living with the guesses, I'm fine with it, or I think there is something—it's usually referred to as the unmoved mover.

There's something bigger than all of this that didn't just put it in place, but according to Colossians, holding it together.

Um, and I think we don't know how atoms and molecules are held together, and then Jesus says, "I hold everything together."

I'm like, "Hey, spoiler alert! I think I know how the hell together!"

So yeah, I think for me, those are always like—as cool as everything is, there's parts of this that nobody can explain, and I think that, yeah, for me, points to God.

That's a word in there!

Yeah, The God Who holds the world together when your life is falling apart, he holds it together!

Let's go! Let's go preach!

So for us, we might think, "Man, how could we see this world exist in this world?"

And it obviously points to Creator, but you, um, you said that in preparation for this message, you asked some friends four questions.

And were any of their answers, "No, there's no Creator?" And what were those conversations like?

How did you balance, you know, teaching to groups of people that might be in the same room of, "Yes, obviously there's a Creator," and then "No, we're not on the same page at all?"

Yeah, I think, uh, imperfectly, we'll just say that off the jump.

Um, you know, which is a beautiful dynamic, um, which just speaks to, I think even what Phil just said, the complexity of us being able to even recognize those things and try to pull those different things out.

But then even to understand too, like what you're saying, some of the answers that I got, like people—yeah, some people said there is no God, but why did they say that?

Yeah, you know, so it's one of my mentors always said, "Javon, it's never about what; it's about why."

So if the question is, "Is there a God or does God exist?" there's a reason why they say no, and there's a reason why they say yes, and then there's a reason why they say, "I don't know."

So what's their reasoning behind?

And I think number—the question—so if you weren't—if you didn't hear what the questions were, number one was, "Does God exist or is there a God?"

Number two is, "Why? What's your current belief system and how did you come to it?"

Three, "What does your current beliefs—how does your current belief system address pain and suffering?"

And then number four is, "Would you be open to follow Jesus? Why or why not?"

And, uh, I think we got real when it came to number two and number four.

Uh, number two was, "What's your belief system?" and then, "How do you, you know, why did you choose it?"

And some people just choose it because they say, "You know, we don't believe there's a God, but I do believe in morals.

Um, I do believe in being a good person and doing a good job and, and you know, being kind and leaving the world to be a better place."

And I'm like, "All those things are great! Um, I think in their—in some of their minds, that was the goal of life."

Which it's good; it's good to have all of those things, which it's part of how we were created to.

So just even hearing that was like, "Oh, he's—they're like, you know, they're tapping into something that's real and true."

And then when I got to, you know, "Would you consider the words of Jesus and following Jesus?" it was like, "No, I don't believe in Jesus."

It's more of like a fairy tale, kind of like a magical created story, or, "I need more proof."

Um, I need more proof.

Um, and so that's kind of the responses.

And I—I wasn't shocked by anything.

Um, and you know, yeah, so you got those from—I don't think there's enough proof from "It's a story" or "A crutch," you know?

Um, which I—I'm like, "Yeah, fam, but I'm like if you go to—if you break your ankle, you go to the doctor and they give you crutches."

So for me, I really think that God—the existence of God, the reality of Jesus, and God putting the world right speaks to—and even gives an answer to why is there suffering.

So oftentimes, the pain and suffering question is, "Why? Why is this happening? Why? Why? Why?"

You may not always get the answer, but if you know the story about how the world became broken and the God who's on the mission to fix it, that at least gives you like, "Oh snap, okay, a locale to start from," rather than just floating, um, in up into outer space where you don't know what's happening.

So I think those are the places where really kind of like started to cement itself to help me even get the framework for my sermon of how and why people address those and then trying to figure out how to take each one of those and craft them into the sermon.

Yeah, wow, I'm glad that you went there from the "Does God exist?" to, "Well, an objection of that could be, but bad things happen. There are—there's pain in this world, there's evil in this world, there's natural disasters," which you talked about later in your message as well.

And I think that making that leap for people was hard—well, easy for someone to say, but hard for you as a communicator to say, "Well, I see those, and I'm going to try to take it there as well."

So I really appreciate that you did that because a lot of people could just argue the existence theoretically and not answer some of the more granular pushback questions.

And I thought also the other thing too is like, look, we're preaching the sermon like this—these like there are people in there that are 150,000 times smarter than me that can talk about the granular pieces of science, sure, right?

That can explain it better than I can in a 30-minute sermon, um, across different generations and different, you know, different topics along those lines.

So you really kind of have to pick like what is going to be most valuable and how do you deal with these with just also tubes like having at least a decency of humility to know like these are fields that are not your fields.

But the truth of the scriptures support these things, so how do you—and how do you communicate those in a way to where people are saying, "Okay, he didn't just say because the Bible said so."

You know what I mean? Like hide behind, you know, quote unquote how people think, you know, "Oh, if the Bible says this and then this," it's like, "Yeah, it's the scriptures say that, but like let's tease that out."

You know, like let's put in the work, let's show you the truth and the reality of this.

And so I really appreciated being able to go to those spaces, um, and to really deal with them because at the end of the day, people are looking for, um, they're looking for some certain things to be acknowledged and some of those problems to be addressed.

And that's part of our great job and responsibility and role that we get to do.

Yeah, yeah, it's great.

And as you're preparing for the message, what gave you trouble? Was there anything that—

Oh yeah, yeah, fam! I just think the—I think the complexity of this question and the honesty of it is, you know, um, it just is the weight to it.

Like you're a finite being trying to describe the infinite, and you're trying to explain to people who don't believe in finiteness, tell them that there is—like there's an infinite.

I think that that was very like—and how do you do that in a talk like in 30 minutes?

In 30 minutes! Which, I'm sorry, I did go over on a couple of them. I apologize to you first and foremost.

Um, and to Big Phil, or I'm sorry, P Drizzle.

Yeah, thank you! So if you're having issues, that's my bad. I'm sorry!

Really, you should apologize to every kids' ministry worker.

That's it! Yes! God bless you! I'm sorry!

Um, yeah, I think that that's—I think that is hard to be able to try to pick and choose and pick and do it in like such a short amount of time.

You know, I mean, you could—there's books and books and books on this type of stuff.

One of the ways that I did prepare was being able to watch, um, debates of, uh, of apologists, um, and people who had questions.

So like whether it was campus, um, like campus conversations, um, there's a great book by a guy, I think his last name is Turrent.

Frank Turrent, he has a book called "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist," which is great, and he goes into a lot of different arguments.

And so listen to people like John Lennox, the mathematician, and just really was like, "Okay, from all these different people and the questions that people are asking and the things that I'm encountering, especially on college campuses and those different things, what are some of the most common ones? What are some of the most, um, difficult ones to address?"

And I found one of the harder things to address was like the aspect of creation.

Like that creation is like when natural disasters happen, like how do you ex—how do you explain that?

That one was—yeah, that one was harder for me.

We've heard it said in church world before that creation groans, or is groaning, and you said that as well.

I've always not really known what that meant, if I'm gonna be honest.

So can you get some more space and time to that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely! I think when, yeah, when that—it talks about creation groaning, it's like, you know, to talk about groans or, you know, another term used, especially when it talks about, you know, Jesus returning, is that it's like pains—like birth pains.

You know, like the Earth is shaking, and the Earth is showing like, "Oh, it's about to happen! Like something's about to come forth!"

And I think that groaning is—it's showing that it's broken.

And the mo—like I think the craziest thing is through the fall, whenever a baby—even through, as a baby is born, as cute as it is, young new baby smell, it's starting to die!

Like it's starting to die, and it's going through its life to reach that ultimate point to where by old age or something that they—that they will pass from this life.

And you think about that, and you think about Genesis chapter 3, 7, when Adam and Eve sinned, and the first thing that they tried to do was cover themselves, and they sowed for themselves fig leaves.

Well, when you take the world's fallen already, and then when you take, you know, leaves from a plant, it's already dying!

It's still green, but in a day or two, it's going to be dead!

So we see this decay start to happen.

Yeah, and the reality that, um, that even creation is like, "Set me free! Set me free! Set me free!"

It's groaning; it's crying out, saying like, "I'm—it's broken! It's not supposed to be this way!"

And I know I quoted a lot of C.S. Lewis in my sermon, which I was like, "Hey man, I wish you could have just preached it, but he ain't here!"

Yeah, make a chat bot!

Make a chat box!

Hey, I'm gonna need y'all—I know this is the place in space!

We've got people!

If Joe's listening, he's probably already on it!

Bro, dude, for real! Like we need to talk about that!

Um, but "Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" is like my favorite, and growing up as a kid, I used to watch the PBS ones, um, and they were terrible, like in the production, but it was just amazing.

And so getting to see visually the pieces of C.S. Lewis that he writes in the account of Narnia, one of the quotes, um, in "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" talked about the evil, um, White Witch and queen that it's always winter but never Christmas in Narnia.

And the ice had been all over creation to that Christmas couldn't even come!

Like they had the character in there like Santa Claus, right?

It was always winter, but there could never be Christmas!

And so it's like we live in this beautiful creation. Winter is not bad, but it's never—it's never fully been made right since the fall.

And what would that look like where it can be spring again, as C.S. Lewis says?

So I think that creation piece groaning out, um, is—was like a—I think a big eye-opener for me.

It's like, "Oh man, yeah, everything's broken, and it's not the way it's supposed to be!"

Wow, I think it was a really good thing to bring up because that's probably one of the most common things that I hear of why people don't believe in God or they lose their faith in God.

It's just this natural disaster after natural disaster.

It's like, "No, no, God's not causing these things to happen! We live in a broken world!"

And all the stuff that you said, it was really good.

Well, and I also think it lends itself to helping people understand, like one of the things that is kind of—it's kind of our default go-to as humans if we think, um, if we want to solve a problem, we go to such drastic extremes.

Um, and what I mean by that is for some people, like, we'll think that if we solve this thing, it will completely fix the world, right?

Or fix my relationships, right?

If I could just have a husband or spouse, then my world will be complete.

And we always, you know, go to these places.

If I can get that one education, if I can get that job, everything will be good! I'll be straight!

Like, "Lord, and my world will be perfect!"

And we do that too with even when it comes to—I do think we need to, as followers of Jesus and, um, divine gardeners of His creation in shalom, is to, you know, make sure that we're helping the environment and we're doing things to make sure that we're helping fix the brokenness and create in creation.

But it also just says to itself, you can't recycle enough to fix the Earth!

You can't drive enough electric cars to fix the Earth!

Like you—you can't!

You can do a good job and start to till the ground and get it ready for Jesus to return.

And again, it takes this, this, uh, weight, and it takes this idea that we are the saviors of the world versus that Jesus is the savior of the world.

And again, it's not to say that we don't engage those things in recycle and build electric cars and do other cool things that haven't even been invented yet.

I just heard that they're making, uh, salmon that's not salmon!

I've never heard of that before until I heard of it!

It's like three—3D—they grow it!

They grow it!

And there's stuff that's 3D printed!

I don't know, fam! It's just I've seen stuff, and I just know we always create stuff, right?

So that's good! We should do it! We need to do it!

People need those advances in medicine!

People need those advances in technology!

But we have to remember that those things won't save us!

Jesus—Jesus will save us!

And because Jesus will save us, He's called us to make those things, and I think that's what makes it beautiful!

Yeah, well, I think there's an inherent nature in which there is a lawgiver.

Like whether you consider yourself a Christian or you're the furthest thing from faith, there is a lawgiver.

It's you, it's a celebrity you really care about, it's a worldview you ascribe to, or it's God.

And so this, you know, Javon, you talked about it this weekend, but this criticism that we levy against God, "God, how could you do this thing?"

Uh, and therefore I'm not going to believe in you or I'm not going to trust you.

What we're doing is we're saying like—we're doing two things simultaneously.

We're saying, "I don't want to believe in God," and I'm going to criticize it.

Well, you don't—you don't get to have both!

And I think there is this inherent law inside of yourself that when you go, "Well, why did that natural disaster happen?"

Well, what are you saying?

You're saying, "I don't want that evil to exist."

And I think that's actually hardwired in us!

God's like, "Good! Yeah, yeah, I don't want that evil to exist either!

I've got really good reasons why I'm letting it perpetuate because I want more people to be in an eternal relationship with me, and I'm willing for the kind of era of grace, as it's referred to sometimes, to perpetuate with pain so that more people might come to know me."

But, you know, Javon talked about it this weekend.

If we become the standard and we go, "I don't want that bad thing to happen! I don't want that bad thing to happen! I don't want that bad thing to happen!"

What we're ultimately saying is, "God, we want a justice that sort of hits this level."

And usually the level that we're ascribing is our own level!

Like we're saying, "Uh, this is kind of my bar, and because we wouldn't put it above ourselves, because then we get deleted, right?"

So we're going like, "This is the level of if it's this good or if this bad or worse, God, take care of it! If it's this good or better, leave it alone!"

And God's like, "No, no, that's not the way it works!

Like my standard is mortal perfection!

And so here are your options: I can extend grace in a broken world and invite you to know me forever, uh, or I can restore all things as they should be right now, and in so doing, you cease to exist."

And so when you put it that way, right, you go, "Well, I guess I understand why natural disasters happen."

Now, that doesn't mean it's emotionally satisfying; it doesn't mean that it's not awful for those people that are impacted by it.

That's not it at all!

But to understand philosophically, like, "Okay, they're actually—this is not an accident!

God's not going, 'Oh, I never saw this coming!'

He is choosing to use the pain of our moment, whether that's something big like that or something small like a personal disappointment or a layoff or somebody in your life betrayed you.

All of those things, I think, are reminders that there's something bigger than ourselves in the world.

Things are not the way they're supposed to be, and the promise of Jesus is He wants to begin to put that right in you, that you might be able to put the world right around you in anticipation of God making the world right forever!

Amen!

And that's—and I really—that's the gospel!

That's the gospel!

It's good news!

It's good news!

And I think a lot of people have not heard good news; they've just seen destruction.

And how does God show us what the good news is?

You know, in Himself!

So it's beautiful!

John, I got one more question for you, and then I'll open it.

I'm sure Jess and Phil probably have questions they've been dying to ask.

Sorry for monopolizing this guy!

No, no, please!

Um, at towards the end of your message, almost at the end, you had the line that said, "You may not get the answer to the why."

This is talking about these questions, but you will get the love of the who.

Is that a Javon?

I said that?

Yes, Lord! You said that!

That's a Javon quote!

I can see a mug coming right now!

Yeah, I'll print that for you!

Yeah, yeah!

Because I think the big part about discrediting God is His character.

And I think it's crazy, like even when we just think about in today's date, if you have a PR disaster or if someone does something like you, what companies do that they are not—um, when they—they act out of character or they're immoral, they justify anything of like, you know, this person to make it not seem as bad.

And that's being dishonest, right?

And then there are people who will tell lies about them or say whatever, and you're trying to—you're trying to do something.

What even you can do, do, or find in movies or in the field of law, you can discredit—you either have to discredit or show that someone has credit, right?

And I think what C.S. Lewis does when he taps into the screw tape letters is very good, where he says, like, "Don't try to convince them of these things. You have to try to make him seem like he's not good.

You have to discredit his character.

You have to—you have to make him look bad in order for him to, um, for ordinary—for you to win."

And I think that we oftentimes look at the reality of the situation and the pain of the situation rather than the person who's in charge over all things.

And I'm reminded that when, obviously, the soldiers, when they put the crown of thorns on Jesus's head and they wrapped him in purple, that when they did that, they were making him—which is part of the whole gospel of the kingdom—in him as king and God of the whole universe is that he becomes king over pain, not king who authors pain to harm and destroy people, but that he can use pain for your good.

Not that he authors it, but that he can use it because he's the king over it; it must submit to him.

And when you can say a God who came and suffered in my place for my sin and who goes through great lengths to fix all things, that all things must submit to him, I can trust that God in the midst of my brokenness to know that God wore a crown of thorns, that fallen creation, he gets killed by his own creation and then wears fallen creation as a crown.

To me, that's like, he's king!

So when you're talking about you may never get the answer of the why, you know the person of love.

Yeah, and that to me is powerful because like Job asks all those questions, and he never got the answer!

He never got the answer!

And I think sometimes we don't get the answer, but we do get the person.

And if we can see the ethos and the ethics of the kingdom, which are the attributes of God, then we can see—we can see the answer somewhat revealed in Jesus.

It's awesome!

Thanks!

Yeah, you bet, man!

Yeah, Phil, what should we have asked if we didn't ask yet?

Um, yeah, man, I would love to know, obviously, we get a chance to, you know, kind of chop it up a little bit every week together.

But, you know, as you're heading back to Seattle today and back to life, and maybe folks at Menlo are like, "Man, I really care about that guy, and it was great to hear from him."

How can they be thinking about and praying for you kind of in this season for your family?

Yeah, yeah, be praying for us! We—you know, I got some great work to do as, um, in the, you know, the NGO, non-profit space that I'm in and helping churches mobilize into their local neighborhoods and communities to really share the gospel and to show, um, people how we are to be Jesus's hands and feet and be filled and dwelt with the Holy Spirit.

So we've got some great work ahead of me in that.

You know, my, um, my daughters are just growing, and it's, you know, parenting is always—is always one of those ones that you're like, "I gotta—I need some Jesus!"

Um, so parenting, uh, just on how to navigate the spaces where, you know, you're going—you're sitting—your kids are in some schools that may have some beliefs that are different from yours, just put it that way.

So just praying and covering over my family.

Um, and then, you know, just for us to continue to have fun together and enjoy life.

So this has been one of the best trips that I've ever been on!

Wow!

Um, I've had so much fun! The Bay Area is great! This area is great!

I'm just—I've been able to, in the short amount of time I've been here, like have so many cool conversations, dinners, charcuterie board! [Laughter]

Times, some ribs!

Some ribs!

You know, like it's just—it's been such a blessing, and it's just—the Lord is doing something special here.

And so I'm—I'm just—I want to see him continue to bless my family and all the things that we do.

So pray that the Lord would allow us to continue to get rest and enjoy those things.

I think, you know, uh, if you haven't put it together, Javon is a bifocational pastor, which Javon's been a bifocational pastor for a long time.

And, um, I think there's just something about that that I respect so deeply, right?

Because like margin for your family, uh, Heather's also great at what she does and works outside the home, and then you have two little girls that you both love, uh, profoundly, right?

And so being present for them and then church world and your pastor is on sabbatical, and so you're covering some extra stuff, and then on top of that, your day job, and, uh, you know, like trying to juggle all that, I think it's—it's not some esoteric like, "Hey, just that we'd have a good life together."

It's like, "Oh man, this is a battle! This is a battle all the time!

There is more, uh, work to do than there are hours to do the work!"

Yeah, and so, man, I just—yeah, I appreciate you!

Thank you!

Thanks for that context because, yeah, so by now, I just—it's like autopilot!

Yeah, do you know?

Yeah, and Javon's been in high tech; he's been at places like Amazon.

He's obviously been in NGO world for a long time, but kind of—I've always just deeply respected how, uh, yeah, ministry wasn't the side hustle for you.

I feel like in some ways for you, the day job's kind of like your side effects.

Yeah, that's—that's a huge gift, and I think way more the future of the church!

Way more the future of the church!

And so to have some folks trying to live that out well for decades is a big deal, man!

Yeah, dude, thanks, man! I appreciate that!

Thank you, John! Thanks so much!

Thanks for coming on!

Jess, is there anything we didn't know about anything coming up for Menlo stuff?

Yeah, we announced our Menlo 150 celebration this weekend!

We got a big old birthday party Sunday, November 5th!

We're going to be at Woodside High School, uh, just outside off of 280, and Woodside is the exit.

Uh, so not too far from Menlo Park, but, um, yeah, we're gonna have one service—all four campuses come together at 10:30 a.m.

So that's one service at every campus, one service at Woodside.

No other—if you go to one of our campuses on November 5th, nobody will be there!

It will be very sad for you!

So come join us!

We're gonna have an awesome service, and then we're gonna have a big party afterwards!

So there's going to be some fun activities to do, lots of kids' things.

You can, um, go to Menlo.church/Menlo150.

You can register, you can pre-order lunch, you can volunteer and help us because we need it!

It's just gonna be a really fun day!

It's gonna be for staff, but it's gonna be really fun!

Anything to add to that?

Uh, I think even if you're somebody that maybe, you know, I think that this probably makes more sense in people's heads if they've been long-time Menlo folks.

And if you're somebody that's newer and you're like, "Do I really qualify?"

Is this kind of—I just think this is one of those moments that, uh, years from now, we'll look back on this event and go, "Man, that was just so special to be able to catalyze and celebrate as a community something really significant."

And so, uh, if you're thinking you don't qualify or that's a week off or should I, I would just give you one more nudge to say make it—make it happen!

Uh, make being there a priority, and there's gonna be something fun for kids, and you know, great chance to hang out and a service that I think hopefully will honor, um, 150 years of God's faithfulness to this community.

Yeah, and so, you know, if you put it in that framework, whether you've been here for a day or a decade, um, candidly, like in the span of 150 years, we're all kind of new to Menlo!

Yeah, true!

Honestly, yeah, we are equally qualified to be there!

Yeah, we've found some like old film reels, VHS tapes, cassette tapes, uh, photo slides—all this stuff that's getting processed right now so we can make a really cool, like, stone tablets!

Yes, that's right!

Yeah, yeah!

We had to paint over them!

Was it you? Somebody gave me the, uh, like 80th anniversary sermon maybe?

Yeah, so I have a—yeah, so you're just going to scratch out the 80 and write 150!

Yeah, yeah!

No one's ever heard that one!

That's right!

That's right!

We found this book that has the list of every pastor that's been a pastor since it started, so wow!

It's pretty cool!

Lots of cool stuff!

So come check it out!

And if you have more questions about this Explore God stuff, we've got groups on every campus going on right now.

If you've missed the first few, don't worry about it!

Come to any week!

You can go to Menlo.church/exploreGod to get all those details—the campus nearest you!

It's gonna—it's just awesome!

Open conversation for you to feel comfortable in a space to ask any question you might have.

Okay, thanks so much for being with us!

Absolutely! Thanks for having me!

So fun!

If you want to send over some encouragement for him or his family, you can text us at 650-600-0402.

I'll pass those along as well as if you have any questions about this series or Menlo 150, just text us!

We'll get back to you as soon as we can!

And Javon, thanks so much, man!

Yeah, yeah! Pleasure!

Bye-bye, everybody!

[Laughter]

1. "The big part about discrediting God is his character... we oftentimes look at the reality of the situation and the pain of the situation rather than the person who's in charge over all things. He becomes king over pain, not King who authors pain to harm and Destroy people but that he can use pain." - 41:19

2. "We always go to these places if I can get that one education if I can get that job everything will be good... we have to remember that those things won't save us. Jesus will save us and because Jesus will save us he's called us to make those things and I think that's what makes it beautiful." - 36:25

3. "God wore a crown of thorns that Fallen creation he gets killed by his own creation and then wears Fallen creation as a crown... sometimes we don't get the answer but we do get the person and if we can see the ethos and the ethics um of the Kingdom which are the attributes of God then we can see we can see the answer somewhat revealed in Jesus." - 44:05

4. "There's pain in this world, there's evil in this world, there's natural disasters... these are fields that are not your fields but the truth of the scriptures support these things so how do you and how do you communicate those in a way to where people are saying okay he didn't just say because the Bible said so." - 28:21

5. "You're a finite being trying to describe the infinite and you're trying to explain to people who don't believe in finiteness tell them that there is like there's an infinite." - 28:21