Empowered Leadership and Spiritual Gifts in the Church

"I think that the ideal situation is one in which you have the one man who is set apart primarily for the teaching ministry and you do get that distinction don't you, you are told in in Galatians 6:2 honor and to support these elders especially then the teaching the word they are a spare your special honor so that this idea of the teacher comes out very clearly and I think that this is something that we've got to that we've got to recognize that the ideal is that in addition to that that you should have opportunities in the life of the church for people to speak and to and to exercise what gift they may have." [00:17:08]

"Well you know you've got to take the New Testament as a whole don't you in didn't else where you talk you find talk about pastors and teachers don't you and that's got to be taken with this and but it seems to me to be quite clear that in the New Testament church there was a multiplicity of teachers I would have thought in in most churches when I say multiplicity we don't know what the number was but I would take the view that the so called one men ministry the whole time pastor preacher you know as we know it it was a later development and I think there's no question about this in good that you raise this point the Puritans the writers I always feel a very unsatisfactory at this point they they take this for granted they never argue it out and they never be with it scripturally they just assumed it and that was because it had long since become the custom before their day the protestantism took over didn't it from Roman Catholicism many of these things and I think that these were these were developments now the question is are you satisfied with this development do you justify it well all I can say is this that it does seem over the centuries in the history of the church that this is the best method I can't find any evidence in the New Testament of the one-man ministry but I find nothing in the New Testament against it." [00:15:02]

"Yes well I of course have dealt with this from the standpoint of the power and I and the action to me what we read of in acts 2 was a baptism of power our Lord's prophecy prediction of its coming and his own statement I think makes that perfectly clear that this is a powerful witness it is the highest form of assurance and its objective design is to enable this men to witness now the tragedy to mean this whole matter is the the confusion that was introduced by John Wesley he's been responsible for many things but this was I think the most serious one John Wesley identified this with certification talking about the pure heart you know and pure love and so on and this is where the Holderness movements of come in and to me confused the entire issue because I don't see any evidence in the New Testament to associate this with sanctification it is a matter of power powerful witness and and I think it's important we should keep these things distinct you see then then I I think that helps to deal with your difficulty and then you see this is something that can be repeated as I was trying to show yesterday afternoon you can know this access of power but you can also know what it is to preach without it and this can be repeated many times you crate the bath." [00:22:16]

"Take the statement in Ephesians 5:18 be not drunk with wine wherein is excess but be filled with the spirit which I believe means go on being filled with the spirit now there is something that we are commanded to do are we not this is an exhortation better well it is something which is under our control and negatively we are told not to grieve the spirit not to quench the spirit in other words the way to go on being filled to the spirit is not to grieve in not to offend in and so on but that is something that comes as an exhortation but this effusion of power is not within our control at all it is something that is given to us it is something that happens to us we are not commanded to do that because you can't do it unfortunately people don't realize this we've all been guilty we'll try to work it out but it cannot be worked up you can work up a carnal excitement you can work up a carnal enthusiasm but there's all the difference in the world between that and the power of the Spirit but you see Ephesians 5:18 as reference to the realm of sanctification for living of the life and there it's an exhortation this is entirely different." [00:24:21]

"Well you see the term anointing that is it I think these terms are interchangeable these terms are interchangeable they honor the honor this is the anointing it is it is an anointing for service and for preaching you know that's that's that's just another way of looking at it as it's a very natural one because these men in the Old Testament were anointed with all won't they for service and so on so that it's it's it's a natural term to use but this is not sanctification remember that's the thing I'm concerned about that we do not confuse it with sanctification in other words let's put it like this to a men can have greatly grown in grace and in sanctification and still not have this anointing for preaching on the other hand a man can have a great a 19-foot preaching whose sanctification may be effective and there have been many examples of these two things you get them in the New Testament church at Corinth you see was so rich in gifts and so on the poor from the standpoint of sanctification so I think it is very important to keep these two things distinct as ideals in our thinking." [00:29:12]

"Yes I only made it glancing reference to that you see it seems to me that 1 Corinthians 12 teaches the sovereignty of the Spirit that he giveth these gifts severally to whom He wills right that to me suggests that all people do not have these gifts at all time they may or may not therefore I can go on to history and what you found in history the history of the church is that God has dealt with many men in this special way that I've been talking about and they've known this special experience of the love of God shed abroad in the heart and this endearment with power for preaching and so on but I've not spoken in tongues but only one of these things of necessity well then I take those two things together and I say well therefore it is clear that this may or may not happen so when I'm confronted by a teaching which tells me that I have not known this special blessing of the Spirit unless of spoken in tongues I say it's unscriptural it is unscriptural and not true to the history of the church they see the got it the wrong way around again become more interested in particular gifts than they do in the love of God shut abroad in the heart and in the sovereignty of the Spirit and so confusion comes in again and that is I think what we are experiencing at the present time and it's once more confusion as I see it I don't know I don't want to go into this." [00:34:54]

"Well of course you've been meeting this as I've been meeting it in the past years and have had large numbers of people who come to me to talk to me about this and I'll simply give you my understanding of this a man will come to me and say that he's been baptized with the Holy Ghost and that he's speaking in tongues and so on that this has been wonderful and so on and the first question I always put to them then is can you speak in tongues whenever you like and the invariable answer I get is yes I said could you do it now they say yes then I said well do it now and they do another I then said to them I don't see how you fit that in with what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 18 where you read I thank my god that I speak with tongues more than ye all which is to me the crucial verse in that whole treatment of the question by the great Apostle in this way I thank my god that I speak in tongues more than ye all if a man can speak in tongues whenever it likes what is the point of that statement if it's something within my own control and I can do it will like turning on a tap all the Apostle is there saying is I decide to speak in tongues more frequently than any of you desire to speak in tongues well what's the point of saying that there's no purpose at all I don't think it doesn't mean that at all as I understand this teaching it is this speaking in times and here I know I am going against very well-known teaching but all right I'm open to examination as I understand this teaching it does not refer." [00:37:13]

"To the ability to speak foreign languages because the a person here differentiates between speaking to the understanding and speaking with tongues he says that when he speaks in tongues he does not understand and it's not profitable to his understanding to me what the Apache is talking about is this and then being taken up by the spirit in a condition of ecstasy or semi ecstasy I don't care how you describe it but he's a man who is taken up and finds himself speaking in tongues which he doesn't understand but though he doesn't understand what he's saying he knows what's happening he is worshiping God his glory in God in an exceptional way he doesn't understand the words but he knows exactly what he's doing now here is something that a man does not will it's something he finds happening to himself so what Paul is saying in effect is this here under these Corinthians bursting about speaking in tongues that elevated this to the primary position and they were bursting of all this Paul says look if you want to start bursting about spiritual experiences and the frequency with which you know what it is to be taken up into the spirit I think I know more about this than anyone of you then there's some sense in it and I believe that that is what he was saying so clearly it is not something the men can do what will this to me is conclusive so when a man comes to me and does it that will I say this is psychological this is a kind of not immortal suggestion as a kind of water hypnotism and we are familiar with the fact that spiritists can speak in tongues and I believe that leaving short of spiritism and evil spirits that that this is a phenomenon which is known and I believe that these men are indulging in some kind of psychological process this to me is conclusive III have spoken to leaders in this movement on this verse and they can't answer me and I would be interested if somebody can explain it in some other way well you were in the light of the New Testament evidence would you give me pieces of 12 filled that the carries matter as you read investigators have come to a close in the third century by the death of the Apostles no I'm saying that's what I was saying that I didn't accept the very well-known teaching on this matter but my answer is this well I don't accept that I don't accept the teaching that's current today either I say that this is something in the sovereignty of the Spirit and if he chooses to give these gifts again I would not be surprised all I do know is that it is clear to me in the history of individual men and in the history of the church that men are clearly received the special infusion of blessing of the Spirit beyond any question and of justified do it of all shades of theological opinion that have not spoken in tongues so that it's clear that the Spirit in His sovereignty has not chosen to give it very often since the end of the new New Testament times there are terms I know that his Danza in various places at different times in the South of France and then in other places but looking at it in general you see that seems to me to be the position so that I would not agree with the teaching that deduces from this history that it all ended in the Apostolic year I find no new testament warrant for saying that but knock was when people talk to me about claiming these gifts and doing something to start getting the gift and so on I see you're denying the teaching of the scripture this is the sovereignty of the and you see this is what's interesting let me put this point forward to you I was saying I think it was yesterday yes that the Apostles never knew when they were going to work a miracle a very striking Punk'd in my opinion you look at the book of Acts I put it like this I think to you the Apostles never announce that there was going to be a healing service a next Thursday never so these men will do this put themselves outside the book of Acts immediately why didn't the Apostles announced they were going to do it my answer is that they didn't know when they were going to do it they were given a commission they were given the power they knew it was gonna happen so they looked at the man and said in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk and he did no failures right this is surely something that is true of all the gifts all of them miracles is one of the lists of gifts given in 1 Corinthians 12 as you know therefore I say that as a man doesn't know when he's going to work a miracle he doesn't know when he's going to speak in tongues so a man who tells me he can do it whenever he likes is putting himself into an unscriptural position and I've become doubtful as to the phenomenon that I'm witnessing you see you see you see my argument that that this I think we've forgotten this element in all this this is something that happens to a man he is not in control except this that let's be clear about this and this again stumbles people and I and yet I don't find it difficult at all in that same 1 Corinthians 14 while Paul seems to me to be saying clearly that you cannot initiate this you can control it because he says that if a men is speaking under this kind of inspiration and another receives a message that the first man is to stop and give an opportunity to the second so that while you can't initiate this you can control it you can refrain it's a mystery but it's obviously a fact and I think that we are all aware of this in a measure that that while no preacher can tell you beforehand what is going to happen in the service he can resist the spirit and he can quench the spirit in that service a man may be preaching and the spirit may take hold of him and lift him up and use him now he may in the interest of his own triad or the opinion of others are one of many such reasons he may deliberately quench that spirit he can't start it but he can quench it he can stop it that seems to me to be the new testament teaching boldness the Apostles had before civil magistrate and John being experienced and I'm wearing it there you said that sometimes we set a arbitrary cutoff point when they saw an activity the Holy Spirit but one of these sovereign action Holy Spirit was revelation in fact that's probably connection to John the spirit oh yes some of the actions of the Holy Spirit as stopping oh yes certainly you see this matter of revolution clearly stops of them I think that's that's that's a abundant London take care that is the means now whereby we test what we claim to be a movement of the Spirit upon us and of course you are right in saying that on that occasion John was given revelation all I was concerned to show was that the very term that he uses about himself that he was in the spirit mint meant that it was something unusual but that was all I was concerned to prove that it was one of my series of proofs wasn't but that you mustn't reduce from that that well in the other cases if there was no revelation involved it was a command to do something or it was an ability to speak with power Peter was not given a revelation when he was addressing the Sanhedrin with John in acts 4 there's no revelation there was there so you mustn't because there was revelation in one case you mustn't assume that this revelation in all cases all I was asserting was that you mustn't say that this has happened once and forever at Pentecost you mustn't say that it happens to all of us once and forever at our regeneration that's my point this can be repeated but it doesn't involve the question of revolution if there's one baptism and pursuing this construction one baptism and many fillings coming on the time to that yes even though I must confess I don't like these phrases that are coming I I dislike them very much one baptism many feelings and and so on this this jargon all I'm concerned to say is this that a men can know this access of power this visitation of the Spirit many times as there have been many revivals in the history of the church so this can happen many times to one individual now I'm not talking I'm not talking about sanctification not talking about sanctification all that business one baptism many feelings is general about sanctification I'm not talking that's where the confusion is coming now well northern I've done which we are so fast as you will notice to me you say that outside of the context of revivals we should strive always to preach filled with the spirit but it's possible for a Christian man not to yes so you're perfectly right and that is the sadness of it all you see that there is this variation in our preaching my saying is the most admit is this that this is what one should always desire but one should always pray for and I'll go further once you've known this you will not be satisfied with anything less but you will experience it many times but you should always be seeking this you see again this I'm glad you said that because I don't think I told you the story I think I put it in little book of mine which was published under the title authority of a preacher on an on a great Sanada cool occasion when reaches and people had come together in the thousands from different parts of the country and this man was to be the last preacher and everybody were assembled the preachers and others were on the platform and the people were all waiting some were standing in some sitting and the time had arrived but the preacher hadn't come and they looked at one another and what was he they waited and they sang some hymns still the men didn't come so the local minister sent a maid whom he found nearby to the house where this man was staying and said go and tell him that it's time and everybody is waiting on the gold run and she run back and she they say they said well where is he well she said he's evidently talking to somebody well they said go back and tell him to stop to stop talking to somebody and come and teach everybody's wait so the gold ran again and she went back again and she said well he's still talking to somebody because I heard him saying if you don't come with me I'm not going to preach also the old minister if that is what he's saying we'd better wait and they did wait and eventually the preacher came and he preached in such a manner that as the result of that one sermon within the next six months 1,000 people roughly were added to the membership of the churches in that whole area now this has been my problem I'm country to confess it to you should one always do that I don't think so I don't think so I think there is a regular Ministry of the Spirit through us and we should preach in that we shouldn't refrain from preaching at all times now I'm convinced that this man was being dealt with in a very special way you see for this very special occasion so go on preaching that always pray and hope for this unusual and exceptional well our time has gone so we leave it for that at that for today and God willing we'll go on again tomorrow afternoon we do hope that you've been helped by the preaching of dr. Martin lloyd-jones all of the sermons contained within the MLJ trust audio library are now available for free download you may share the sermons or broadcast them however because of international copyright please be advised that we are asking first that these sermons never be offered for sale by a third party and second that these sermons will not be edited in any way for length or to use as audio clips you can find our contact information on our website at MLJ trust org that's MLJ TR u st dot o-r-g." [00:49:35]